The new recycling system

So you have conceded this has thrown up a unsolvable problem?

Its not unsolvable. There are two solutions. You either bring the materials back to a retailer or you put them in your recycling bin and forego the deposit.

Fairly sure the "return point operator" for the business will be the wholesaler who supplied them with the cans/bottles in the first place?

You are kidding, right ?

If you want to win the internet just carry on be my guest.

That's some change from your previous position of having proven something.

Yeah, I was misreading/misinterpreting that. That makes a lot more sense. I assume its a manual count.

So now wholesalers will have to drop off cans/bottles and pick up the empties from these business? Is that correct?

I drop my glass bottles off when I go to the cinema. I park a little out of the way to do this. If I want to get rid of large cardboard etc, I drive a slightly different route to my local Aldi and drop it off on the way. I nearly always combine those trips with something else.

I know what my opinion is thanks all the same.

they're all in on it XD idc who the scope was defined by or whatever that even means, all i know is government wants results that they can show to the eu, for brownie points in terms of recycling or whatever, and they are paying re-turn to help fetch those results.

Also in regards to non-profits, i see it all the time even with charities. Surely the clothes the clothes donated are not actually being worn? some people naive believe they are being worn. Same with recycling most of the time, we can recycle lots of bottles and cans in our green bin, that doesnt mean they're all going to be recycled into plastic pellets or whatever. Alot of our recycleables just gold sold on to others at profit.

Why was there a trial then? The RVM's that were already active at aldi and lidl and dunnes and printing vouchers for instore credit, what are they called then? a shop isnt gonna take a loss for do-gooder actions. Clearly there was profit to be made somewhere amoung all that. They're not doing it for the good of their health.

It's a cash grab at recyclables. As you said there's no shareholders, so its all in-house profits without having to give any of it away to anyone. Company keeps all it makes, and the public make no profit, they only get back what they give at the very most (the deposit).

The whole thing stinks.

massive ques will only be with massive consumption, more than likely people will wait until they have like a bag full to make it worth while and then decide to redeem them. and what are the odds that people will have their bags filled all at the same time? i see no que realistically unless there's an initial bit of buzz at the start, or people are making a que happen because of trying to put the same thing in and out of the machine again and again. holding up for everyone else. ques wont be an issue and feel really non-existant.

however as for car journeys, could this not be off-set by the people who are going on foot or bike?

and even if its not, the system really only cares about reaching those recycling numbers as their goal and not "environment air pollution/less travel", if they had their way their answer to this would be "buy electric cars then". typical "off-set the costs onto the customer" thing again, just like what this scheme is doing to solve the recycling problem

There was no trial

Lidl did something on their own bat, with nothing at all do with the scheme. They paid for everything relating to it as a PR thing - it was not making them money. I don't believe Aldi or Dunnes did anything but it they did it was, again, on their own bat and for PR.

You are continuing to just make stuff up to fill in gaps in your understanding. This is a terrible, terrible idea.

Apologies for the long post ;)

Advocates of this new scheme typically say re-turn was the *only* solution to the problem of “low” recycling rates (even if we can’t say how low or high recycling of plastic bottles and cans currently is). 

I don't think that is necessarily the case.  I do think no other solution than RVMs was actually considered.

One alternative way to implement this would be to have the deposit on every plastic bottles and cans sold in the state, but have that then returned as a credit on the householders recycling bill once collected. The recycling deposit would operate as a levy or tax, there should be no need for any special label or barcode, or packaging, simply charge the levy on any qualifying item, from an implementation date.

What about collection? A lot of discussion on here about how a domestic collection scheme like this could **only** work if RFID type technologies that don't yet exist or exist at scale were available; the plain fact is that there is adequate technology today if you accept that you don't actually need a 100% perfect solution (Re-turn is far from being 100% perfect, as these boards show - so a better alternative only has to be as good as re-turn, or better - it doesn't have to be 100%). 

Collection services would require a separate, chipped bin to be used for credit-able items only, and collection trucks would need an imaging capture stage (photo/x-ray / other) on entry to the bin truck.  AI could then later be used to decide if the customer gets any credit returned, and by how much – the idea here is that being you penalise **any** contamination in the bin (e.g. someone throws in a non plastic item amongst 20 valid items, they forfeit all credit from that bin).  Image is retained to support any customer dispute, etc.

All the above analysis / decision is done after image upload / post-collection, mostly by software, with some human review. Key point being that there is no delay to the bin collection service whatsoever, operator simply attaches the bin as normal to the truck etc.  Technology like this exists by the way - https://www.businessinsider.com/sc/smart-trucks-can-make-recycling-easier-and-more-efficient?r=US&IR=T (I only opened one link from a google search, I am not saying that is the solution for us - but I am sure there are many others available).

As a householder you get a credit for properly recycled items, or a penalty if you fail to recycle correctly.  Very simple.

I go further to say that this approach might even have been an easier transition than nationwide RVM. Yes, it requires every bin truck to be upgraded, no getting away from that being a big change - but that is surely less overall effort than having to upgrade every retail premises (There must be several times more retail outlets than bin trucks in the state, and the RVMs are probably more expensive per unit than what would be needed on each truck). 

Yes, every household needs a new bin in order to segregate, but again that’s a one-off, relatively low cost requirement - in my alternative, we have no 'false ecosystem' to fund, we are not paying for a new semi-state, we are not rewarding retailers for collection. 

Remember - this type of scheme would not require separate labels, special branding a quango to operate it, or new contracts issued. It would not inconvenience retailers, other than admin of the levy on good sold. the scheme could be wider and be open to every type of plastic and can (not just certain plastic bottles and cans as is now).  

Key thing is that it would not mean any change for compliant domestic recyclers (other than making sure they use the correct bin at home), while it incentivises those who do recycle now to start. It supports the waste management business in Ireland, encouraging home owners to have a bin collection service, reduces the chance of cost increases to consumers. It improves waste segregation. It can also work with other waste management practices (i.e. your local recycling centre could issue credit if you don’t use a waste collector, etc).

These are just my thoughts. Feel free to poke holes, etc. I am not saying, remember that its perfect, just perhaps more 'convenient for everyone', with the potential to better solve recycling issues too. I know this is all too late, we are not going to step back from RVMs at this stage; but I wanted to challenge with this post the idea that there was no alternative. 

I suggest that no alternative was ever properly considered.

Some else said here that it was a trial by re-turn, when i raised the issue of it being private and nothing to do with them. Either way now yalls are saying they (lidl, aldi, dunnes) did this for public relations reasons? correct?

Also there was outcry when dunnes decreased the prices coming up around christmas time of last year or whenever, there was posts about it. Did the scheme not pay for itself then with the recyclables? if you apply that to the current scheme, then we should'nt be stook footing the bill since we was'nt stuck footing it last time.

they're asking for way too much and giving little to nothing in return. they melt the plastic into pellets, and do something else with the cans, then re-sell that raw material broken down from our recyclables. its the same logic with sugar tax, they raise the price of fizzy drinks with sugar in them to somehow combat obesity, they just like any excuse to make the price of things more expensive or to add more tax to things.

long story short they just want the "easy quick money" recyclables, not the plastic from shampoo bottles, milk, tinned food, sprays and other things.