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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,379 ✭✭✭prunudo


    If the work that Trinity do is so important and the equipment so sensitive, why not build a laboratory on a green field site, far away from interference.



  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    Luke O'Neil will have trouble tuning his guitar probably.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,574 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I'm not an expert on RF propogation by any means, but I really can't believe that the effects of transients from a 1500 V DC line running underground are greater than from the same type of electrical system operating the DART line in the open air less than 1 km away.

    I have been in experimental RF labs, and they are entirely shielded from outside signals. It's not particularly expensive to achieve, and if you want higher accuracy and immunity from interference, you also measure the ambient signal outside of your lab as well as inside so that you can see if external interference could explain results. Again, not expensive to achieve..

    This is really about someone in Trinity not wanting to lose their chance to build down in future. "The Science" is a red herring.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,498 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    The cynic in me reckons it's about TCD trying to land a big bag of cash in compensation. They could get some new and refurbished labs out of this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 558 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    The cynic in me wonders if any of the Trinity objectors live near Charlemont. Conveniently suggesting the route should terminate north of the Liffey, cause of magnets....



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  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    The Trinity thing is one again the establishment who see themselves as an elite caste who are the types that are 'deeply concerned about Climate Change' but fly on first class junkets non stop and see public transport as being something for commoners.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    I'm sure there reasons are valid but they're probably looking for some compo to relocate their equipment or to buy some mitigating equipment.

    It's not a good enough reason to move or hold up the Metro though.

    The Metro should've been built 20 years ago. Failing that construction should've started in 2017 or 2018 once our finances were back in order.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,498 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    I've no doubt they probably do have some valid concerns with what they're saying, but can we just skip the whole song and dance charade please TCD? Tell us how big a bag of cash you're looking for, why your labs need to be renovated to 'mitigate the risk from Metro' and so on. Lets save ourselves a couple of years of pointless back and forth on the merry go round.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,520 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    When deciding where to site their labs, why did they select a city centre site? Surely there are multiple sources of current and future electromagnetic interference? What other development does their lab prohibit?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Cause that's where they are?

    I mean, I hope their objections are essentially discarded, but building your labs miles away from the departments using them is going to be extremely sub-optimal.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,520 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    But this type of lab is hyper sensitive to electromagnetic radiation we're told. With that in mind surely an alternative site should have been considered



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I'm sure some consideration was given to it, but you rapidly diminish the usefulness of the labs as they become further from the centres of research they are supposed to serve.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It was originally founded at the University of Copenhagen. It moved to it’s current location due to the needs of its experiments.

    Nothing stopping Trinity doing the same.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Just to be clear, it is completely normal for Universities to have remote and distant labs and testing sites. It is also normal for universities to move entire departments to new locations if that makes more sense.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Apart from the complete disconnect that will develop between the researchers and other academic staff in the department and the undergrads and postgrads. Perhaps that is something they will have to ultimately do in the future, but it will be detrimental in many ways and there are rather obvious reasons they would avoid it if at all possible.

    CERN is CERN, it is an international centre of research unto itself. It is not remotely comparable to some pieces of equipment that are used in the day-to-day research of a university.

    This comes across quite similarly to people doing crayon drawings of potential Metro routes.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    No it doesn’t, it is absolute nonsense and outside international best practice to build sensitive labs inside cities. This is something small time universities do, not proper research oriented universities.

    Imagine trying to build the large hadron collider collider under the university of Copenhagen!

    It is completely normal for the large research oriented universities to have remote labs and locations. I can list of hundreds of such facilities if you like.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    LHCb is 200m from the runway of an international airport. I can see CERN from my office! It's not exactly out in the sticks. Also, CERN is a dreadful comparator anyway - it is an international research project with over 2000 of its own staff, not a departmental lab.

    Every single city-based university is going to have sensitive labs on their main campus. MIT has a nuclear reactor on their campus in the city!

    If you can not have sensitive equipment inside cities you can not have whole science departments inside cities which is plainly not true. It will clearly cost them to adapt to this and probably limit their further growth - I am completely on board with not caring about this in the grand scheme of things. I hope, and frankly am reasonably confident , that the objections will be largely ignored. However, "why didn't they just build these labs dozens of kilometres from the department they are supposed to serve" is not a reasonable counterpoint.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    it is an international research project with over 2000 of its own staff, not a departmental lab.

    That is the point about CERN, it started out in the University of Copenhagen, but had to move to expand and grow into it's own world leading institute.

    Imagine if the University of Copenhagen tried to stop Copenhagen Metro lines from being built!

    Trinity isn't exactly known for their hard science, if they were serious about it they would move it to a more suitable location.

    I'm sorry, but this is a load of Bollocks, they are a city center university, DART passes through part of the university, and Luas all around it. They have a history of trying to block and hinder public transport projects like past objections to Luas. I don't believe for a moment that this is a real concern for the University and not just an excuse to extort money.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I have zero time for the objection, and they should be particularly laughed out of it for suggesting they stop the line north of TCD as any kind of mitigation.

    Trinity isn't exactly known for their hard science, if they were serious about it they would move it to a more suitable location.

    However, this is utter garbage. It is possible to highlight the ridiculousness of their objection without resorting to such dismissive nonsense. We are talking about the kind of equipment in the middle of cities all over the globe. The scientists in TCD also do plenty of important research. Yes, there is also an existing DART line and it should not be beyond them to mitigate for the metro, but Metrolink also most certainly should offer some mitigation funding. Had TCD left their objection at requiring extra mitigation as opposed to moving or stopping the line I would have not had much issue with it.

    However, "They should have just built the labs somewhere else" is not a serious counterpoint to the objection. They build them on their campus where their departments, staff and students are located. Belittling the work done there on top of everything else just makes it worse.

    Also CERN moved to Switzerland for political reasons more than anything else.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The idea that Trinity called have off campus facilities is laughable, in fact they already do.

    Part of the Trinity is actually in Tallaght Hospital and St James Hospital, including important institutes and teaching facilities. They even have plans to build a new research facility at Grand Canal Dock!!!!

    So it is ok for some Trinity staff to be out in Tallaght, but not these scientists!

    Yes, CERN's location was partly chosen for political reasons, but also because you couldn't build facility like the LHC under the city of Copenhagen. The point, is just like how Trinity can have a large part of their Medical Health department out in Tallaght, it is completely normal for major research departments to have large new facilities outside the confines of historic city center locations which often simply aren't suitable for such facilities.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Oh, and how did I forget that the Marino Institute up on Griffith Avenue is also part of Trinity!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Building medical research facilities beside hospitals in no way, shape or form undermines my argument that you should build the research facilities where the expertise is located.

    TCD is space constrained, hence there will be growing need for off-site facilities. There are already newer facilities east of Westland Row. However, GCD is within very short walking distance of TCD and it would fall foul of your supposed "no science inside cities" requirement anyway.

    You don't like TCD and consider them serial objectors. That is fine. They have also allowed Pearse St fall into ruin. There are many bad things you could level at them. Flippantly saying they should have just built their labs "somewhere else" and that they don't really do hard science anyway is just applying the same kind of dismissive hand waving logic all the Metro objectors use. "Why did they build them there?" has a rather painfully obvious answer. There are massive benefits to having the entire function of a department co-located, for both students and researchers. The researchers are there and so their equipment needs to be there. Off-siting an entire department is going to be incredibly expensive and have detrimental impacts on the students. It made perfect sense for Trinity to build these labs where they did.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Building medical research facilities beside hospitals in no way, shape or form undermines my argument that you should build the research facilities where the expertise is located.

    Of course it does! You are trying to claim that there is no way they can move a lab to a remote location as it would split a department.

    I'm making the point that universities all over the world do this, all the time, when they run out of space they open new campus or remote locations when they have specialist needs. And here we can see even Trinity doing it themselves. Splitting departments and remote campus like Tallaght and Marino.

    This is perfectly normal and a regular occurrence for universities, even Trinity, as they expand and grew.

    TCD is space constrained, hence there will be growing need for off-site facilities. There are already newer facilities east of Westland Row. However, GCD is within very short walking distance of TCD and it would fall foul of your supposed "no science inside cities" requirement anyway.

    Exactly, they are space constrained and now need to expand off campus, like Marino and Tallaght.

    I'm not for a moment saying they can't do science in the city. But if certain experiments require perfectly shielded environments, then clearly a busy and growing city center is not the location for it. Just like they don't have the space for a Hospital on the Trinity campus and so have it out in Tallaght instead, if they are serious that something like this lab would be interfered by a Metro, then clearly a city center location is not the place for it either.

    Just like I wouldn't expect the University of Copenhagen to build something like the LHC under Copenhagen or try and block a new Metro line in Copenhagen.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    TCD did not expand to Marino, they took over the degree granting for an existing institution.

    I am claiming that on campus was by far the most logical place to build the labs and there are numerous detrimental reasons to putting a few labs off site. The only way it would work would be to offshore the entire group or department and that would have cost magnitudes more money and been a fundamental change in the nature of the university. You can not have research labs that involve the researchers and postgrads getting on the bus for an hour to do experiments and then the same in reverse for their teaching and undergraduate work. Synergies between research groups and departments is vital, and interactions between undergrads and research elements is what makes a properly thriving educational university. Putting the labs on a greenfield site would be equivalent to James' hospital putting their radiology department outside the M50. There are similar labs inside city centres, including with metros, all over the world including in many top tier universities. There objection is not meritorious, but it is not remotely for the reasons you are putting forward. They absolutely should have built the labs where they did, it is just going to cost them a bit more to overcome the Metro works. You can dismiss the objection without engaging in the same, essentially, nimbyism that blights infrastructure projects. They built where they did because it made by far the most sense to do so. There was nothing either mendacious or stupid about the decision.

    Please stop mentioning the LHC, it could not be less relevant to departmental research labs. It was never the University of Copenhagen's to keep, it had nothing to do with them. Bohr just happened to be based there.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Honestly, I think Trinity are just doing what they should, advocating for themselves. I think that they have a massively inflated sense of self-worth, but I can't really fault them for looking out for themselves. I do think that it's a bit rich that they'd suggest stopping the tunnel rather than ask what can be done to mitigate the issue, as it's just an engineering challenge rather than an absolute showstopper of an issue.

    I always relate any issues that hit the media back to the Markievicz building. If the NTA and the government are ok to CPO and demolish 80 apartments in the middle of the worst housing crisis in this nations history, then they are extremely unlikely to take on board Trinity's objection, nor do I believe that ABP would give it much consideration either, at least, not beyond "implement mitigation measures" anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The problem here is really of the NTA/TII making as they seem obsessed with Metro Link and deferring DART underground. Without DART underground you have to connect to Tara Street and that opens the can of worms

    The original alignment aka Metro North was more westward as they put the stop basically under the current Luas St Stephen's Green stop over the other side. The change in Metrolink to serve Tara Street pushed the line eastwards under the science end of TCD. That got TCD's nose up and more importantly the Markievicz issue which impacts the local community.

    TCD has 2 large MRI machines in the basement of the Lloyd building, its been there since ~2007, and replaced recently (upgraded the big one from 6 tesla to 7 tesla). There are other buildings and apparatus. The DART line was factored into the buildings design, there was never a plan to put a metro underneath and at the time the Metro North was deep in the planning process taking a different alignment

    MRI is used for research studies and rarely for diagnostic purposes so locating it in Tallaght/James doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Solution is to build Metro Link without serving Tara Street and let DART underground provide the connection at St Stephen's Green, but thats too big an idea to swallow for some in authority. Vastly better for the passenger, Tara Street is a tiny station with a twisting platform and hasn't a hope to support the flows that will be forced through it.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk




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  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    Surely with all the thousands of miles of electric metros and even heavy rail running under urban areas worldwide there must be plenty of other research facilities as Trinity who are not bothered by this issue?



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