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Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Exactly how many will leave we cant say for sure, but it will be some and it will set a new bar for taxation in Ireland which will discourage future inward investment - simply because more folks employed to work in MNCs will opt to work in other countries outside of Ireland, where that choice is available.

    One thing is for sure, raising income tax isn't going to help retain staff here and it isn't going to help future job creation in Ireland.

    We also already have a huge budget surplus. Lets not forget that.

    Do we really need to rock this boat?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    One thing is for sure, raising income tax isn't going to help retain staff 

    and you are only supposing it will result in flight that damages.

    Surely you can find evidence/data in those countries I listed to back up your point?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Its well evidenced that decreasing marginal tax rates boosts employment and increasing it does the opposite.

    You will find plenty of evidence of the above. Google is your friend.

    You also have to bear in mind that these jobs are mobile. They can easily move country if tax rates become an issue for staff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nothing you have claimed has been

    well evidenced


    I have looked for issues with attracting and keeping people in those countries I listed but can find nothing of significance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Fair play to you for looking, but I do hope you dont work in Economics of any sort.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,438 ✭✭✭✭Geuze



    Regarding the buddget surplus, I feel this is being kicked around as if it's huge, and the answer to many problems.

    The 2022 surplus followed two years of massive fiscal deficits.

    The public debt is not small, and by some measures you could argue it is still quite high.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Why would I need to?

    Do I need a qualification in Economics to see reports of people leaving/ those countries not being able to attract to the extent it is doing damage to their economies? Is this info hidden somewhere?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Where did he say that?

    What is 100% clear is that Sinn Fein manipulates the rules and the funding arrangements to ensure that its income is hidden from the public in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You must know they have money hidden to claim this. ^

    Have you brought your information to the relevant people? If they haven't done anything about it then they are failing in their remit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    "The three topics the international community would say to me about Ireland is talent, housing and stable government policy,” Goddard told the Business Post."

    Now where do Sinn Fein stand on these issues?

    (1) Talent: MNCs need to attract talent to work in Ireland. As the Chair of the IDA has said, Sinn Fein's plans to increase income tax is scaring businesses off. This is a big problem as MNCs will not invest in Ireland if their senior people won't come here because of the high taxes imposed by Sinn Fein

    (2) Housing: MNCs bring a lot of people to Ireland for short periods, for a year, for a couple of years, possibly a decade. Therefore, one of the key requirements they have is a stable rental market with institutional investors. Cost doesn't matter as much as that stability and predictability. Sinn Fein's plans to frighten off institutional investors will not go down well with MNCs.

    (3) Stable government policy: Sinn Fein tell us they are the party of change. You cannot have change and stable government policy at the same time. The whole purpose of change is to destabilise government policy.

    So I cannot understand how Sinn Fein have managed to reassure business leaders. Either they are telling lies to the business leaders, or more likely, they are lying to the Irish people.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


     MNCs will not invest in Ireland 

    Unless you can point to back up for this.it is just the same scaremongering we heard before. The article says that they 'have concerns' as any sector would. It mentions nothing about 'not investing'.

    Is nobody investing in

    Denmark

    Portugal

    Austria

    Belgium

    France

    Netherlands?

    There is bound to be some data on this.

    2) How long have we had a housing crisis here? Is there info available on how the current and previous governments housing policy has deterred FDI or caused corporate flight?

    3) You might be de 'stabilised' by the change, but there is no reason that change should cause general instability.

    I think, fair play to SF for taking their policies/intentions to international business and allaying their fears. That's is a very responsible way to proceed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    I would say there's no one policy that should be pursued in all circumstances. In times of high unemployment, a job creation strategy is of utmost importance. In times of full employment, creating jobs may just lead to more demand for resources and driving up rents as people are imported to fill those jobs. Other strategies may be more appropriate.

    In times of housing shortages, bringing more people into the country may not be what is needed. I think the problems in Ireland result from strategies formulated in the 1980s but pursued long past their net benefit to society.

    That is not to say that the MNCs should not be listened to but rather that there is a balance to be made between their needs and the needs of society as a whole.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That is not to say that the MNCs should not be listened to but rather that there is a balance to be made between their needs and the needs of society as a whole.

    I agree with this and I think that is what you will find has happened in the countries listed above.

    I think it would be a rare individual who would upsticks solely on the basis of a loss of some income.

    As you say, balance is the key and most people are fine if things are balanced and equitable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    If change doesn't bring change, then it is not change, (stable government policy is the opposite of change), and Sinn Fein are speaking out of both sides of their mouth again.

    In Ireland, we have had to invent new ways of measuring the economy because the MNC sector and FDI are so large, no other country has had to do that, because we are way beyond them in success of attracting FDI, yet one poster wants to compare us to Portugal for FDI? GUBU stuff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The misrepresenting what is being said begins.

    Nobody compared us to Portugal for FDI.

    The challenge was clear. There are countries that have higher personal taxes than us that have no discernible problems with companies refusing to invest or with people taking flight.

    If these things are discernible then I cannot find evidence of them. It's up to those claiming these things will happen to back it up or stand accused of plain old scaremongering.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    There is an awful lot of bizarre nonsense posted on these boards.

    Posters can claim that higher rates of income tax do not deter FDI and then even more bizarrely can claim that they cannot find evidence to refute this. There are some basics of economics and public policy that do not have to be explained every single time a poster challenges them. One of those is that higher taxes harm economic growth and FDI. From the OECD:


    "For instance, Hajkova et al. (2006) found that the impact on FDI of labour taxes is generally substantially larger than that of cross-border effective corporate tax rates (see below)"

    There are hundreds of academic studies that link higher income taxes with lower FDI.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Why are you avoiding providing the data from the countries listed?

    Higher taxes do deter people, as does societal problems, lack of housing or medical infrastructure, that is a given but as another poster pointed out the key is achieving a balance.

    Those countries listed have found a balance because there is no discernible problem with FDI or with employee flight. If I am wrong simply point it out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    I hear your point, but restricting job growth should really be the last card we play.

    There are still plenty of high end apartments going up in Dublin at the moment, I dont think we will see a problem housing those folks over the short term, especially as the rate of job creation has obviously slowed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    You are wrong and its been pointed out by multiple posters.

    If you honestly believe that raising income tax for higher earners is going to be a positive for Dublin and Ireland and wont result in job losses and a reduction in FDI investment, especially amongst the larger MNCs, most of whom manage large global employment footprints, then I dont know what more to say to you.

    But, hey, you are entitled to your opinion, as are we all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    All you have given is your opinion.

    Can you point to where this has occurred. Simple request. I gave you a list of countries with higher income tax rates than here. Which of them have experienced what you claim would happen here?

    Take the Netherlands for instance:

    According to the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA), when measured by country of foreign parent company, the Netherlands was the second largest destination for U.S. FDI in 2021 (after the UK), holding $885 billion out of a total of $6.5 trillion in outbound U.S. investment – about 13.6 percent.

    Or Denmark

    All measures indicate that multinational enterprises play a significant role in the Danish economy. Although Foreign-owned multinationals comprise only 1,2% of Danish companies, they generate more than 18% of private sector jobs as well as nearly 25% of Danish exports.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,667 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    did you read the post? The poster was insinuating that SF have other income they dont put on their books. You cant manipulate 'rules and funding arrangements' as Im sure if there are loopholes, SF arent the only ones using them (I said 'if' because though its '100%' clear to yourself, it isnt to me.)



  • Registered Users Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    I'm not saying restrict it though. Just saying that once we've achieved full employment, pushing for for more job growth may not be the current most optimal strategy for the well being of the country. Though, yes, it did make a lot of sense at times in the past.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    The economy always need to grow and the population of Dublin is growing by about the size of Galway City every 4 years.

    We need more jobs to support that growth.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You don't need to be an economist to know that you cannot just 'grow the economy'.

    The party's of the power swap have not learned this and have left key infrastructure and indeed, people behind.

    FG deputy McGahon got caught handing out this mantra on the Tonight Show last night.

    He was valiantly touting the OECD report that placed us at No. 3 on the list of most 'progressive tax systems'.

    He was completely stumped and showed he hadn't actually read the report when the presenter pointed out to him that that OECD report also said that our tax system had 'huge inequalities'.

    'Yeh but....' was all he could reply.

    It was clear that head office had armed him with the quote but not the substance of the report.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Didn't see the interview. But it might be Francie, rather than McGahan, who isn't quite across the substance of the report.

    What the OECD says is that we have a highly progressive tax/transfer system which does more to reduce income inequality in society than the tax/transfer system of nearly every other OECD member state. But we need this because, before taxes and transfers, we have an extremely high level of income inequality.

    The "massive inequalities", then, aren't in the tax system; they're in the labour market. The progressive tax/transfer system alleviates them — after taxes and transfers, we are pretty much mid-range for income equality in the OECD. But we wouldn't need such a progressive tax/transfer system if income and wealth was more equally distributed in the first place.

    If SF sees this as a problem, and if they have a policy for addressing it, no doubt Francie can point us to the policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Not what the rest of the discussion said Pere.

    VAT is part of the tax system and that was identified as a problem.

    I am not, like McGahon and others going to pretend I have expertise in this or throw out selective quotes from reports, I am just making the point that there are inequalities and people and infrastructures have been left behind here.

    Any attempts to balance and fine tune the system are worth looking at without the 'oh they are all going to leave' scaremongering.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,002 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    How do you fix VAT being the problem without making people who earn more pay more for basic goods? The only way I can see this working is if we introduce an ID at tills that contains your wealth or income levels that gets scanned in and adjusts the VAT rate accordingly.

    Also they probably are already paying more for basic goods considering they are likely to be buying higher priced goods and thus paying more in VAT than someone buying cheaper brands.

    I notice nowhere in this discussion is there a mention of MUP in a similar vein especially considering it effects lower priced alcohol to a far larger extent than higher priced stuff..



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    We will never achieve full employment. Some people will always be unemployed for multiple different reasons. We are probably as close to full employment as possible now



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Well, they do, where are the millions that the English old guy left to the "Sinn Fein party in the Republic of Ireland"? I will tell you where they are - siphoned through the Sinn Fein party in Northern Ireland because the bequest wasn't allowed in the South. That is income that they didn't put on their books correctly.

    Then there is the "Friends of Sinn Fein" and their activities. Funding online bots abroad is one thing that they have been doing.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Except that if you are not constantly renewing jobs, you will fall behind. Why did great economies of the past fail? Because they stopped innovating, stopped creating new jobs in new industries. We in Ireland are being slow to embrace wind and solar energy, slow to welcome data centres, etc. If anything we need to up our game in creating new jobs.



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