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Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    He can go from being 3rd choice 10 (with pressure from Prendergast behind him) to 2nd choice 10. Or potentially 1st choice 12; Nankivell is on a 2 year deal, so if he signed for next season, it'd only be 1 season with both of them.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    He’d be mad to consider either of those options as attractive. If he wanted to focus on 12, he’s got as good a chance at Leinster, especially if your proposal means waiting a year and hoping Munster can resist their natural instinct to sign another NIQ centre when Nankivell’s contract is up.

    If he wants to play 10 - Munster is also the worst possible place to go. There he’s joining a queue behind the presumptive Irish 10.

    If he wants to be a guaranteed starter then the right option for him is Connacht or Ulster.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    If he wants to be a guaranteed starter then the right option for him is Connacht or Ulster.

    Sure, but no one wants to go there. Which is probably the bigger problem that needs fixing.

    I would disagree that being behind the presumptive Irish 10 is the worst place to be though. He'd certainly get a lot more gametime at 10 there then he is likely to get at Leinster. Course I don't really think he's a 10 which colours my opinion.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    I also don’t think he’s a 10. He’s gotten plenty of opportunities there, and Leinster’s attack has never really looked fluid with him at the helm.

    The coaches are seeing him train at 10 regularly, and have also come to the viewpoint that he is not really a 10.

    Back to the point though - I can’t see how it’s a good move for him to go and become a guaranteed back up at this point in his career.

    Gametime isn’t something he’s ever lacked (when he stays healthy). He should only leave Leinster if he’s doing it to a situation which he thinks bolsters his international ambitions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I'm a simple man, Syd. You gather data, you get a like from me.

    And it's a fair point, if third-string players leave Leinster, it will have an effect somewhere.

    But the discussion is perhaps not really focusing on the most important issue (for me) which is - what do the players want?

    There are the Rhys Ruddocks of this world who seem to be happy guiding the team when internationals are away (well... current rumours aside).

    There are also the Joey Carberies who wanted a chance to be a first team player.

    One player might develop more in the 1200 minutes in and around URC league-stage games.

    Another player might want to experience the less frequent, but higher stakes scenarios, like Heineken Cup and playoff games.

    We tend to think of players as all guided by the same thing, but they're as diverse as any workforce.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    This is absolutely fair, and I wouldn't suggest anyone forces anyone to move. All you can do is highlight their options and make an appealing case and leave it to them.

    Though I partly think this is one area where the provinces not being able to compete financially falls foul.



  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    Absolutely no good would come from allowing the provinces to compete financially with each other for players.

    It would just lead to overall wage inflation across the entire player base.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yes, I know the downsides and it is not straightforward. I think allowing e.g. Ulster to offer more to a player in a position of need to a squad player elsewhere would have benefits though. It would need to be tightly controlled and may not realistically be feasible. But let's not pretend there are not some disincentives to the current set up.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    All monies are pretty much from the same pot though, by and large?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Essentially. Which is why they don't allow wage competition cause they're just driving up their own bills. But there is an argument that the IRFU should be able to give dispensation for it.



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  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    The current set up is the one that has us, a country with less than 200 professional rugby players, in a realistic situation where there was widespread anger and frustration at our failure to win the last Rugby World Cup.

    The current set up is the one that had us the #1 ranked team in the world for over 12 months, and has delivered plenty of success in recent years internationally and domestically.

    The current set up has our club sides still thriving and growing, while our nearest neighbours across the water are on their knees because of the shambles they’ve made of their financial situation.

    Whatever slight benefits there are to allowing the provinces to compete financially for each other’s players (and I’m not convinced there are any) are massively outweighed by the material downsides to it.

    There is a relatively small and finite pool of money that pays all for all rugby here in Ireland effectively - allowing the provinces to compete like this financially will drive wages higher and just mean there’s less money left in the pool to pay for underage development and all the other things that are ultimately funded from the same pot.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The current set up has our club sides still thriving and growing

    Does it? It has one of them thriving and one being at least consistently competitive but nearly always falling short at the pointy end. And this is the most relevant point - I don't think whether Deegan or whoever is at Leinster makes a difference to the international team so I think those points are a bit irrelevant.

    I'm not suggesting a free-for-all, but given it is all IRFU money anyway at the end of the day I think they could be smarter about it. At some point you can make the argument the money can be used more effectively, and at the end of the day if you want players to move maybe you need more than nice words of encouragement. Of course maybe they are happy to have one powerhouse province, there is a logic to it.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    If he wanted to focus on 12, he’s got as good a chance at Leinster,

    I don't agree. There's obviously Henshaw, but obviously Osborne comes into the picture there too.

    ... and hoping Munster can resist their natural instinct to sign another NIQ centre

    Subtle :P

    If he wants to play 10 - Munster is also the worst possible place to go. There he’s joining a queue behind the presumptive Irish 10.

    If he wants to be a guaranteed starter then the right option for him is Connacht or Ulster.

    I don't think Munster would be as bad an option as you're making out for him - he'd likely get far more minutes at 10 there than he currently is - but I absolutely agree and can see the logic with regards Connacht or Ulster too tbh.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I'm not sure provinces would have meaningful wiggle room tbh. The lower living costs outside of Leisnter doesn't seem to be a major factor; at least, it doesn't seem to be creating much of an exodus from the East. Would it be much extra incentive offering an extra 25-50k a year if someone is already saving 100s of thousands in accommodation? I mean, I know the answer is yes, to some degree. I just don't think provinces would ever be in a position to offer the sort of "change your life" money that is on offer in France, for example.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Ah no, they absolutely wouldn't. It just seems a bit useless to me to be able to make a pitch of "go here and we'll try and get you more gametime but we'll pay you absolutely nothing more to do it". For some the former is enough of course.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I mean, I get what you're saying. Even a little something to sweeten the deal and absorb the migratory cost. Maybe something controlled, like the number of NIQ places. No mare than 50k extra a year, and no more than 1-2 players or whatever. Can't imagine that'd send the IRFU to the poorhouse.

    I could (understandably) see Leinster being very unhappy about it though.



  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    Any scenario where the provinces can outbid one another for players will lead to wage inflation - that’s basically an economic certainty.

    It would lead to more players moving obviously - but you’re not putting forward any real argument for why that improves things for Ireland.

    All four Irish provinces are performing well by any international comparison - they’re competitive, all have good attendances and growing fan bases. It’s also sustainable growth that isn’t reliant on stretching themselves to the brink on expensive overseas signings.

    If you start playing it out - how it works when Ulster, for example, are permitted to outbid Leinster for Max Deegan, then it’s obvious what happens when other Leinster or Ulster back rowers are at contract renewal stage. It would just be the IRFU bidding against themselves ultimately to the detriment of the Irish game overall.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Does Joey Carbery really think he's going to usurp Jalibert?



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    The IRFU could decide to give appearance bonuses. Playing 15 games with one province would instantly be more attractive than 5 with another, even if the wages are the same. Essentially the clubs are told to use the players or lose them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 756 ✭✭✭Zeugnis


    They have 26 games in a normal season in the T14, add in the barrages and Europe and you're up to 30+. Carbery is not going to usurp Jalibert, but he could do 1000 minutes in a season anyway, like Zack Holmes has done.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭Clontarf_Jazz


    So if Ruddock defects to Wales that's the end of his Leinster career as he becomes an NIQ player ?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    He can't play for Wales unless he is playing in Wales (or contracted to do so). Not that they would have much issue with bending their own rules, but they aren't going to do it for Ruddock.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I agree with your general point but i don’t think the irfu would let them sign an NIQ 12 with him there. They generally frown on too many in a row in same position.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    How do we know the IRFU don't allow a certain amount of leeway when it comes to Provinces outbidding each other? If a third-choice player at one of the Provinces moves to be first choice at another surely there'd be a pay rise to reflect his rise up the ladder? They allowed Connacht to offer Illo a senior contract when there was only an Academy place on offer from Leinster. Is that not a form of outbidding? The Connacht deal must have been worth multiples of what Academy players get paid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

    Claiming to 'understand' why Leinster fans would be aggrieved but then going on and on about why they shouldn't be - that the players 'don't have an appreciable impact', that they aren't 'crucial' despite multiple posters providing you detailed reasons why they absolutely are.

    I dont see the same energy by you in the Munster thread when posters are aggrieved about moves.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You're entitled to think Frawley and Deegan are more important to Leinster than Doris, Keenan, James Ryan, Porter, Ringrose, VdF etc.

    I'm entitled to think they're not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭jonok28


    Leinster due to the significant quality of the academy system and them constantly churning out talent at a rate of knots is bound each year to lose a percentage of that talent to the other provinces and abroad.

    The difference is, Leinster, apart from some notable instances e.g. Joey Carbery, Roman Salanoa, Sam Ilo and Jack Aungier (Really only Carbery and Salanoa), have been able to keep the players they want to keep. Joey was moved because Leinster had identified him as Kearney's heir at 15 with Ross being their 10 of the future. The IRFU didn't agree with that as Joey had proven himself more than capable at playing 10 at an international level and a move to Munster in order to help him progress at the position was the logical next step.

    With Salanoa, Leinster already had Furlong and Porter at the TH position so in the IRFU's mind, game time was going to be hard to come by.

    Leinster will lose a fly half in the next 12 to 18 months. My guess due to his previous injury history and somewhat lack of position versatility as well as a glut of options at the position, the odd man out will be Harry Byrne.

    Leinster clearly love that Frawley can play 10,12 and 15 at a relatively high level and if Nienaber wants to continue with a 6-2 split, having a fly half capable of covering multiple positions will be of vital importance. Plus Leinster already have Ross to start now and Sam Prendergast marked as Sexton's heir.

    With Jack Crowley at Munster, Ross Byrne at Leinster and Jack Carty at Connacht all established as nailed on starters when healthy, Ulster is the only province who have a bit of uncertainty at the position. Harry going to Ulster would be a good move for him and Ulster.

    I can see Munster bringing in a more experienced Irish qualified fly half in order to push Jack Crowley and to provide quality depth. I can see them target Freddie Burns or AJ McGinty. They will try and use a NIQ designation on a winger or a front row player.

    I could also see Charlie Tector going to Connacht to add to the talent pool at fly half in Galway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,173 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    That has always been an exception afaik. Part of the reason why some players suddenly get promoted to senior contracts - because another province has offered a senior contract to an academy or development player.

    My view is that some outbidding should be permitted. Each team has a player budget they need to stick within so provided that the budget is maintained surely that will act as a depressant to significant wage increases. If one club pays €50k more for a player because they fit a need then is that really a problem as that is €50k less in the budget. The other point is that the inability to outbid means its harder to get Irish players to move (as discussed at length above) which might mean that an NIQ is needed to fill that hole sometimes (but not all the time). So while we might save €50k on Irish player wages, we might be losing that saving or more to an NIQ.



  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    AJ McGinty isn't Irish Qualified, and even if he never played again for the US he won't be Irish qualified till November 2025.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,709 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    I know we have some funny rules but surely if you're signing a 33 year old back up 10, him being IQ or not should be fairly irrelevant?



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