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Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    When you see somebody holding a completely irrational opinion, one that is academically debunked, maintains that irrational opinion, in the face of the irrationality being clear to everyone else, you do have to wonder.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Sinn Fein haven't managed to reassure business leaders. When you see the planned Minister for Finance can't even release an alternative budget without mistakes. Builds a whole campaign around "tax the rich" and then a few months later it released and they had a 28% error in the original 140k amount and now its 100k.

    How can you attract talent to Ireland when you don't know if they are going to be the target of the "tax the rich" policy, it should be just named "tax the worker".

    Sinn fein as I have said multiple times are incompetent. MNC and business leaders are watching all this, imagine a company making a 28% error and then brushing over it as if it never happened? if it did people would be fired from top to bottom. Total incompetence.

    I go back to the "up da ra" lad who supposed to be the planned Minister for Health, said he was going to hire hundreds of new Consultants. When it was pointed out to him that all these people would be the target for the "tax the rich" policy and why would they come to Ireland when their take home pay would be less and the current government can't attract them. The answer? well no real answer and then pointed to pearse.

    Incompetence. Every business minded person the Ireland can spot all this and that is why people think it will be a disaster for Ireland.

    That's just two departments, once you start bringing in the rest of them it turns into a total shambles.

    Housing :-) don't make me laugh. EOB is good at shouting from behind mary Lou in the Dail and that's about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Again this makes no sense.

    Every single party since the dawn of this state has been incompetent and made mistakes. Some of them tragically costly in many many ways. They have also gotten things right and done some good. No government is ever going to achieve perfection.

    Stop the melodramatic exceptionalism maybe?


    Now it seems to me that SF have been hard at work reassuring business leaders. Or are you refuting what the article clearly says?

    Yes they have concerns about personal taxation, but the only people shouting about corporate flight are posters here.

    Posters who cannot demonstrate where this flight has happened elsewhere because personal taxation was raised. Still waiting for examples.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I was talking about Sinn Fein. More nonsense.

    As I said incompetence from the party from top to bottom.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well I hate to tell you, it's endemic across the political class.

    Any comment on this:

    Now it seems to me that SF have been hard at work reassuring business leaders. Or are you refuting what the article clearly says?

    Was the guy from Deloitte sensationalising and threatening the flight of staff? Was he even alluding to it as a consequence?

    Can you point to where this flight of staff has happened in the countries listed with higher tax rates?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭pureza


    Problem is,after the meetings,business people don't believe them and the advice being given right left and centre in the busiiness world is to protect yourself against a Sinn Féin government now while you still can

    Business people are Savvy like that

    Personally I think if or when Sinn Féin get into power,it's not business people that will get an awful land,its their core supporters, their proletariat when nirvana is still missing



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,002 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Its not just business people, private citizens who have any degree of wealth are being advised to move their money out of the country for fear of what a SF government will try take from them, my parents themselves arent in this situation but have several friends who would be worth low double digits millions and have confirmed they are in the process of or already have secured themselves against a SF government by moving a fair amount of their assets overseas. If people in that position are doing it just imagine what those in the far wealthier categories are up to.

    Francie can deny reality all he wants but the fear of what SF will do is making people desert the country with their money.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Come on folks.

    Back up the conspiracy claims.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭pureza




  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Do you have anything to back up this?

    the advice being given right left and centre in the busiiness world is to protect yourself against a Sinn Féin government now while you still can

    'left, right and centre' is a big claim.

    Is it yet another one that won't be backed up and therefore consigned to the sensationalism/scaremongering folder?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I have posted links from the OECD and from academic studies that show that there is a link between high personal income taxes and low FDI, but the evidence is ignored, all because it doesn't fit the narrative of Sinn Fein good, everyone else bad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Haven't we seen that before? Ansbacher etc.

    I have no doubt there will be greedy people fretting. How would they not with all the sensationalism about.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I have shown the reality in the countries listed that striking a balance seems to be the key to maintaining healthy FDI.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭pureza


    Heh

    You're not being real again as usual

    Business people,high earners and the legal profession aren't publishing articles

    They're just doing

    Boards.ie punters like yourself aren't a priority



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    "Whatabout Portugal" and some other countries was the start and end of your contribution. Nothing to back it up, not a single academic study, not a single economic argument.

    All of the evidence points to high personal income tax rates discouraging FDI. All of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So you cannot back up your claim.

    Thank you for that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭pureza


    Back to you not being real again I see

    Thank you for that



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So how is it affecting the countries I listed.

    I know the theory and I accept that if that is all you do...increase income tax to unsustainable levels you will get corporate flight. That isn't rocket science.

    However there is like everything nuance and balance that can be achieved. And the countries listed seem to have achieved it.

    Seems to me, SF have been hard at work allaying the fears of FDI investors and they are certainly not intimating flight or anything like it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You made the claim. Up to you to back it up when asked.

    Seems to me if somebody claims something is happening 'left, right and centre' that they must be basing it on something.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    You are the one making the unsupported claim that the economists and academics are wrong and that it isn't affecting the countries you listed.

    You claim that they "seem" to have achieved balance, but Portugal, for example, is a much poorer country than Ireland. You also haven't set out how their income tax arrangements have gone up while FDI has also gone up.

    As you say in your own post #2456 those who make claims have to back them up.

    You have made the outrageous claim that a series of economists and academics are wrong in stating that higher personal income taxes reduces FDI, you claim that Portugal (and let's just take one of your spurious examples) is a country where higher personal income taxes don't deter FDI, and you have made this claim without any evidence that Portugal has higher personal tax rates than Ireland and that Portugal has been able to get similar levels of FDI as Ireland. But you have the gall to ask others to back up their claims when you are going around making a completely nonsensical claim against all the evidence and refusing to back up that gibberish claim.

    Someone else might draw conclusions as to what you are at. I will just present the evidence above.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I didn't say they were 'wrong', I actually accepted the premise.

    What I am saying is that it is not the case in the countries listed and I'm offering a reason why that is - they have achieved a balance that seems to work for everyone. Tjey seem to have accepted that the balance achieved is better than increased FDI (which is not necessarily a good thing to be so reliant on, which is something I think we will also have to face down the road)

    I have challenged you to show corporate or personnel flight or a damaging lack of FDI investment, in what is quite a list of like countries. As yet you have failed to do that and cling to a general rule.

    *You seem to once again be trying to insist I am making a point about Portugal for some bizarre reason as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    You have presented zero evidence that it is not the case in the countries listed - Portugal was one of those you listed, so I am limiting it to Portugal to make it easier on you, come back with the stats from Portugal that back you up.

    You have presented zero evidence that even if your theory that it is not the case in the countries listed, that the reason is the one you have advanced.

    You have presented zero evidence that those countries believe that the balance achieved is better than increased FDI.

    All of the above runs counter to the established economic and academic norms. In other words, when it comes to economics and FDI, you are the flat earther or climate change denier, and until you produce something more than zero evidence, that is how your "arguments" should be treated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I can find no evidence of corporate or personnel flight from the countries listed. I can find nobody expressing concerns about attracting professionals from abroad in those countries.

    By all means if I have missed something post the information.

    These are the things that are claimed will happen here if there is a rise in personal income tax rates.

    I have simply challenged those making these seemingly sensationalist claims to show where this has happened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    As I said, that is equivalent of somebody saying that they can find no evidence that the world is round, so all the experts are wrong and that they can find no evidence that there is climate change, so all the experts are wrong on that as well. You will probably tell us next that you can find no evidence that 5G masts and Covid vaccines are safe so all the experts are wrong on those.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,955 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    It is you who make the claim: higher income taxes will cause corporate flight, and personnel flight.

    I have challenged that view.

    I have posted a list of countries with higher personal tax rates than here , some of them 5 and 6% higher and asked you to show how that causes what you claim in those countries.

    P.S. To put it another way - how come the rule you quoted has not applied in those countries?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,876 ✭✭✭Bobson Dugnutt


    Imagine trying to explain concepts like macroeconomics, demographic changes, bond maturity terms to someone like Pearse Doherty?

    FF will have to insist they retain the Finance, Justice and Defence portfolios.



  • Registered Users Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    That is what I meant by full employment: the practical maximum level of employment achievable.

    If we have this, then continued job creation strategies being dominant may not be optimal for the country. That is not to say we should stop creating jobs but rather that other strategies for improving living conditions may become relatively more important.

    For example, imagine a large multinational corporation expands into a particular area with close to full employment promising the creation of, say, a thousand new jobs.

    In times of high unemployment, this is almost entirely good news. Unemployed people people of various skill levels get a chance of a job, the chance to buy a house and raise a family.

    In times of full employment however, it means more people moving into the area, longer waiting times for medical services, difficulty finding school places, higher rents and house prices on already highly priced accommodation. Queues for rental properties etc.

    Like I said earlier, this does not mean we stop creating jobs. It means, rather, that job creation takes its place among other strategies like building more housing units, increasing school places, training and education and so on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    All of those countries have lower levels of FDI than Ireland.

    In order to show that the experts are wrong, you need to produce a country, any country, with a similar wealth profile as Ireland, which manages to combine high and increasing levels of personal taxation with high and increasing levels of FDI.

    There isn't one, but off you go. Until then, best that your deluded economic theories are filed alongside flat earthers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,957 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    And Public Expenditure, Environment and Foreign Affairs.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Is high and increasing FDI the way to go though as the overriding economic strategy? It made sense in dark days of the 1980s and worked well for a couple of decades but might constantly increasing FDI as the dominant national strategy have run its course? Again, like the job creation strategy (of which attracting FDI is part), it does not mean we drive out FDI, but rather re-balance the strategy taking into account the current needs of the country.



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