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Rugby 101 - Know your rucks from your mauls!

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭theintern


    This is explicitly covered in law by 8.20.

    Side note, you said 90 seconds. That's a conversion. A penalty is 60 seconds.

    8.21 The kick must be taken within 60 seconds (playing time) from the time the team indicated their intention to do so, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed and a scrum is awarded.

    Anyway,

    8.20 If the team indicates to the referee the intention to kick at goal, they must kick at goal. The intention to kick can be communicated to the referee or signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or when the player makes a mark on the ground.

    Like all laws in rugby, it's open to interpretation what the referee considers 'a kick at goal'. Referees aren't mindless machines, and in the case of a match with only a few seconds left, I think most referees would see through this and award a scrum to the opposition team.

    The same applies at a restart kick. You can't just kick the ball out of play or not ten, thinking it'll cause a scrum and the match will be over. Or at a lineout, if time expires in between when the ball went out and when the throw is taken. A team that wants the game to end could throw the ball crooked on purpose to cause a scrum. But the scrum will still take place, even though time is up for exactly this reason.



  • Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭Clontarf_Jazz


    Yeah that's what I assumed - it's just I'd bever ever seem it arise in a game before. It's was like when Ireland had the 2 hookers injured v Scotland & would have had to play on with 14 through not fault of their own only Cian Healy piped up & said he'd played there at underage level (was it)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Has to be a genuine attempt at goal. Penalty against the team kicking thr goal if officials deem it not a genuine attempt



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Yeah in some circumstances if you are the team to cause scrums to go uncontested you have to drop a player. Which is to stop a team who are struggling in scrum negating their oppositions strength. They lose a player as a punishment



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Cian Healy would have to have been listed as a possible hooker option. Didn't just say, 'I did that before'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Yes to be able to have contested scrums in games you must be nominated before game as a loose head or hooker or tight head on team sheet handed to officials/match organisers before gamr starts.



  • Subscribers Posts: 42,004 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    agreed, healy would have to have been listed a hooker replacement on the official paperwork pre game.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I remember a video clip from a few years ago of Ruan Pienaar , playing in France (where they've had the kick clock for a while) deliberately standing and watching the clock tick down - He was ready to go with about 40 seconds left , but he just stood there with the crowd completely losing it before he finally moved with about 5 seconds to go and the ref blew the final whistle then.

    Found the clip




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭theintern


    The sanction here is a scrum, not a penalty. Here's a video of it happening in a ProD2 match.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxW2xyMVJTY


    The story I've heard is that ever since Italy ended up down to 13 because of a red card and an injury to a hooker, Ireland have been listing their front rows as being able to play all possible positions they're in any way capable of playing, just in case.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I think all countries are doing it - The Italy shambles was a wake-up call to everyone to make sure you have your props "cross trained" as it were and much more importantly , listed on the team sheet as such.

    One the day, one of the Italian Props would have been absolutely fine moving in to Hooker for contested scrums , but because they weren't listed as such on the team sheet they were not allowed.

    I remember a game a good few years back where Steve Thompson , the world cup winning England hooker was playing in the backrow in a club game and the hookers got injured and the scrums went uncontested even though Thompson was there, because he was not marked on the team sheet as a hooker so he was not allowed step in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭theintern


    I don't know if every prop can drop in at hooker though at a high level. I've seen the official forms from all provinces over the last season or two and they aren't listing all front rows as LH, TH, H capable. Likewise they're not listing all props as TH/LH. There are still definitely specialists in all positions. I think they're just more likely to list it down if someone does have some experience.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    A hooker might not be suitable or able to prop, but most props could fill in as a hooker.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Exactly - The concern is player safety and a Prop is perfectly safe to move the the hooker position for scrummaging purposes.

    They might not be very good at it and probably won't be able to throw in but there should be no safety concerns , which is the reasons for the various laws around "qualified substitutions" etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭Clontarf_Jazz


    Rule change : I'd really like to see the powers that be introduce this rule change which is akin to the Champions League in soccer i.e. it a player amasses 2 yellow cards in the 4 group stages matches the he is suspended for the next knockout match. It would help to punish certain serial offenders & would I may I think help prevent anyone one 1 yellow card from committing deliberate foul play in a subsequent match or see his team leave him out of the starting line up.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I like the idea of there being further risk for "serial offenders" but not sure about a 2 card threshold , particularly given that Rugby has the concept of the "team yellow" that doesn't exist in Soccer and also the fact that you can get a yellow card for non foul play actions depending on where they occur on the field.

    Take for example the Leinster game on Saturday , Jack Conan got a card for a simple off-side offence because the team were on a warning following a series of earlier penalties. Conan had only been on the pitch for a few minutes at that point so he wasn't the one giving away the earlier penalties.

    It would be very harsh for a player to miss out on a later KO game because they picked up a "team yellow" in a group game.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Dont think you can compare the two sports. You can have team yellows in rugby which penalises individual in a way you dont see in soccer.

    I dont think a yellow in a previous game should affect players like that especially getting a punishment for 2 yellows.



  • Subscribers Posts: 42,004 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Plus the obvious big difference between the two sports is a yellow in soccer isn't penalised during the game, where as it is in rugby.

    Therefore there has to be a sanction in soccer for an accumulation of yellow cards, otherwise everyone can foul to a yellow card level with impunity



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    Something that really annoys me is players hanging onto a ball in touch and preventing a throw-in etc. IMO there should be a penalty if the ball is not instantly released.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,521 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Law change suggestion - scrum against if a player on the attacking team joins the ruck after the ref calls "use it".

    Also, option for the ref to yellow card during phase play. Won't always be possible, but if a side needs 4 points or more at end of game (for example) he could roar at a specific number to leave the field. Would make it easier for the attacking team. Ref could give pen try if it's ignored.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Use it, should have a definite time frame that's implemented. Whether that's five seconds or possibly three.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,719 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Agree with something to be done about players joining the ruck, especially, if they're only there to extend the length of the ruck


    Wouldn't agree with your second point at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    I dont see why a scrum against should be called if a player joins after use it is called. 5 seconds is a long time for a ruck and dynamic of ruck can still chamge a lot in that time so players should still be able to join to contest ruck/protect the ball.

    Yellow card suring phase play isnt really possible. Roar at player to leave. Yeah that really foibg to work. You cant give a penalty try if they refused. A penalty try is only awarded if a probable try would have been scored but for foul play



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Lots of changes coming possibly but at least dealing with 'use it' and the caterpillar:

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/mar/19/world-rugby-plans-speed-up-sport-broaden-appeal



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,104 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Good to see that the French TV directors are finally being tackled 😁

    World Rugby also wants to look at “setting new minimum standards for technology providers” amid a number of complaints that replays have not been available or shown during the Six Nations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,644 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    the decision in yesterday's game to come back for the scrum after a knock on was kicked away by james Lowe and went dead.


    What are people take on it? My understanding until yesterday was as soon as you put boot to ball in knock-on advantage then its advantage over



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,719 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I've seen kicks called advantage over as soon as the kick happens but I've also seen refs wait to see if the kick stays in play. In Lowe's kick, as the ball didn't go straight to touch or dead immediately from the kick I thought ref should have called advantage over.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,521 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    What about the knock on by Leinster off the LAR kick that didn't go 10. Surely should have been a scrum for not going 10?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Leinster deemed to have played the kick so its lar scrum



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,719 ✭✭✭✭phog


    If a restart doesn't go 10 but the opposition play it, it's deemed ok. So the scrum for the knock on was the correct decision



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,521 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Thanks, I never knew that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭theintern


    I personally though this was strange too. But I was doing something else while watching and didn't get a good luck at Lowe while he kicked. Was he under pressure from a defender?

    If the player gets a chance to kick the ball, and isn't under severe pressure, that's advantage over for me.

    If the player snatches at a kick under pressure and makes a hames of it, I'd bring it back for a scrum.

    Law 7.1.a says that advantage "May be tactical. The non-offending team is free to play the ball as they wish.". Kicking while not under pressure would come under that definition for me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,719 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I think, getting the ball back from a knock on should be enough of an advantage, use it as you wish.

    Going back for a scrum just slows the game down.

    If a player knocks on but that team regathers the ball, blow it up for a scrum to the opposing team.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 427 ✭✭TheSunIsShining


    You can also ask the kicking off team to take the kick again actually. And if a kick-off goes straight into touch, you can opt for a line out on the half-way line rather than a scrum - long while since I saw someone opt for the line-out option by the way - and that includes taking a quick throw-in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭ersatz


    90 second conversions are crazy. Addds up to ten minutes in a lot of games.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭theintern


    This was never a problem until they added the shot clock. They wanted to clarify things because some players like Sexton used to take quite a while. 89 seconds feels like a very long time when you can't see a shot clock so the crowd start jeering the player, even though he's within his time.

    But what happened was that now players know exactly how much time they can take and so every player is taking every second they can. So it's actually made the delay worse. They traded a minor problem for a bigger one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Hard to find stats but I feel like there are more tries in rugby these days (prem 5.6 per match), that really adds up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    When a player is tackled into touch with the ball, how long does he have to release it? I think players who don’t release it instantly should be penalised.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 427 ✭✭TheSunIsShining


    There's a general law whereby players mustn't do anything that is contrary to good sportsmanship....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭Ardillaun



    We’ve all seen situations where a player was able to prevent a rapid throw in by simply holding on to the ball. There needs to be a provision to stop that happening with appropriate punishment like a penalty.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    All depends on temperature of a game. No need to instantly penalise a player in vast majority of cases where ball is out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 427 ✭✭TheSunIsShining


    Law 9.6 - "A player must not obstruct, or in any way interfere with an opponent while the ball is dead."

    Sanction is a penalty and I would suggest this covers the scenario you've described



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    I don’t think it does at the moment. There’s often a tussle for the ball because the player in touch won’t give it up. When he prevents a throw in there may be no sanction even where a try might be scored. We’re talking about something that can impede the flow of attacking play. Why not let the ref, say, count to three and then award a penalty if the player hasn’t released the ball?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    You don't need to penalise all those times a quick throw might be attempted. More often than not a lineout is formed so quick throw couldn't even happen anyway. It can't be a straight yes or no in terms of ref counting to 3 and then giving a penalty



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 427 ✭✭TheSunIsShining


    E

    The referee already has the discretion to give a penalty if he/she believes that a player is preventing a quick throw in from happening or is interfering with play moving on. Much of rugby is structured on a referee being able to interpret the laws as appropriate - hence you have laws rather than a rule book - and I don't think introducing a law such as you are describing is required given that it is already covered. I.e. as things stand, if a player held onto a ball after going into touch as you describe then a ref already has the means to penalise that player.



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