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FI Charts ( T120+ onwards) Winter 2023/2024 **READ MOD NOTE IN FIRST

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,877 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    Ireland is a mild country and will always be but we do get some short lived cold weather like what we have right now and some very warm to hot conditions at times in the summer. This thread is for looking towards trends that break us out of the monotony of the Atlantic conveyer belt which dominates our weather most of the year. We look for cold spells in the winter, heat plumes and high pressure dominated weather during the Summer as well as storms any time of the year. We also look for drying trends when we get to the point where we can't take any more rain. The majority of stuff in this thread rarely verifies because it goes up to 3 weeks out, sometimes more looking but we mainly look for trends and pattern changes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭esposito


    Actually the correct term is cool temperate climate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭John.Icy


    GFS and GEM 12z continue with some sort of height rises over Scandi by Day 10.

    Far too early to nit pick how neither look like a particularly straight forward route to cold due to the patterns elsewhere in the hemisphere...but a trend is a trend.

    GFS 12z @ Day 10

    GEM 12z @ Day 10

    If the next chase is going to involve a Scandi, I'll actually jump on board after my abstinence for the Greenland high chase/debacle in early January.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,877 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    GFS 12z looks like it's modeling a repeat of the easterly from 2012...but it's interesting to see this stuff been modeled already.

    I get the feeling with the current cold snap about to draw to a close we are about to get involved in another chase but this time it probably will be a Scandi high, just please be more straight forward without any major wobbling and get in as early as possible.

    The difference between a cold spell in early February compared to late February is huge in terms of sunlight and snow melt potential.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,753 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Don't do it to yourself ,Gonzo, it will only end in tears! But seriously the way the vortex is so strong in Greenland it's going to be very difficult to get a scandi high far enough north and orientated the correct way, if the Vortex plays balls you get a robust Scandi High but it's a high wire act. Also there is no guaranteed the cold makes it all the way here. As we saw in 2012 or was that 2013? Then there was the famous phantom easterly that disappeared at t-48 that led to a meltdown on Netweather.

    Post edited by nacho libre on


  • Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭Reversal


    2012 was the total phantom easterly, 2013 we were just too far west but the UK got a good easterly. I don't know, Scandis always seem high risk for us, always right on the western edge of the cold with more of SE flow rather than E or NE.

    And yeah agreed, the current model runs showing a Scandi high also have a fairly robust portion of the polar vortex of greenland so not ideal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭Reversal


    Obviously mid winter is best for cold, but it's not the be all and end all either. March at Ireland's latitude would have similar levels of solar radiation to January in much snowier places such like Chicago. Now of course they get much colder air masses, but if we get proper cold the greater solar radiation won't do too much, and I still think its better to have snow and cold rather than usual cold wet March weather.

    People often talk about the thaw in 2018, but where I was that was really only after storm Emma as the warm front cut off the cold easterly flow and the air temperature went above 0 degrees, once the snow stopped falling and the thaw was on right away but not in the days of the easterly before and during storm emma. You'll always get thawing on surfaces that easily absorb solar radiation, even in December.



  • Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭Reversal


    12z ECM, GFS and GEM all show high pressure moving north over Ireland at day 8/9/10, so hopefully more dry frosty weather at least before long. Who knows if the high can get far enough north to avect a cold continental airmass towards us.

    Lets not get too worried or worked up yet, its been a long winter already! Just for fun I was looking at the ECM output from Feb 2018. Despite what the folklore on here says, there were some serious wobbles in the output in the run up to that BFTE. Few runs has had the high stay right over us sending the cold into France, some had it move too far north and west and mild air arrived from the south early. So I suppose there's no such thing as stress free cold hunting in this country, I even remember the arguments on here in 2010, 24 hours before snow fell some posters here were adamant the uppers weren't cold enough for snow to lower levels in November. Some of the snow that fell the next day lasted a month on the ground!



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,877 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    yeah I think if we are to get a Scandi High the main worries would be getting the high up north enough otherwise the easterly dives southeastwards into France/Spain and misses Ireland completely or too far north and we get the Atlantic back, then there is the heights over southern Europe to worry about also as well as those deep areas of low pressure over Canada would just flatten things off before it even gets to us. So much can go wrong but nothing to worry about as we don't yet have a trend appearing, just a couple of outliers.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭Rebelbrowser


    Not sure the meltdown was confined to Netweather! I, for one, had told everyone.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭WolfeEire
    Clare (410ft asl)


    The ECMWF and GEFS pressure means are screaming Azores High with extended Iberian heights to me. The respective panels for the latter part of the runs have plenty of support for a Scandi high but the former is ever present. A familiar sight for us in winter. We will keep watching on though and struggle through the upcoming washing machine period of weather.


    Edit:

    Perturbation 26 is a thing if beauty though 🥲


    Post edited by WolfeEire on

    www.x.com/wolfeeire



  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭WolfeEire
    Clare (410ft asl)


    The NAO is looking remarkably similar to mid Dec to early Jan and the forecast is not dissimilar either I.e. wind, rain and mild.


    www.x.com/wolfeeire



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,753 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    We can get a scandi high with a positive nao, infact sometimes it aids one forming depending on the tilt of the pv opposing it, but I think if our favourite driver does go back into cod mode, then we can forget about any high going far enough north to bring cold from the east our way. I just hope any high in early February isn't a mild one. I have a feeling with the strat pv in recovery mode the seasonal models that are predicting blocking to dominate in February could turn out to be wrong. Perhaps a dry first half then back to normal service?



  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭WolfeEire
    Clare (410ft asl)


    One notable feature of the next 10 days' weather is the distinct lack of cold in the Northern Hemisphere with even North America warming up after this weekend. The vortex strengthens with any significant cold confined to the Urals through to Siberia and eastern Asia. Definite signs of a change come the end of the run though.


    www.x.com/wolfeeire



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,877 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    The Atlantic is back in business after a 2 week vacation. That's an incredibly zonal signal up to January 27th that looks locked in up to that point. Mostly mild or very mild but some cooler interludes which are very brief and not all that cold either so a mild signal overall for the next 10 days. After that from January 28th there is a huge amount of scatter and I've a feeling this scatter will grow over the coming week with colder ensemble members appearing giving rise to huge uncertainty for the final days of January and opening week of February.

    Looks unsettled but not overly wet and there are signs of high pressure setting up towards the end of the month which could settle things down again. As for the next cold spell well there is no real signal here other than a few rogue outliers with the overall trend staying warmer than average. This could begin to change over the coming week to 10 days.



  • Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭bazlers


    Thats my fear. If we do get our fabled Easterly what cold will there be? We will need our source more easterly into Russia or North East (from Svalbard would be nice!) now nothing to say Scandinavia couldn't have built a nice cold pool in the mean time in such case great. Then Elmer Blooker might be the prophet of the weather world alluding to 1947 with those charts! Its a funny old world its been a funny old time of weather in 2023. Maybe a couple more months into 2024 for the jackpot!



  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭WolfeEire
    Clare (410ft asl)


    There is an awful whiff of an Omega High over Iberia about the long range charts with the high wedged in between areas of low pressure, leaving us under a much milder airmass. The death of many a February's wintry prospects for Ireland and the UK. That is the favoured outcome in the GEFS panel with any real cold skipping up and around us. There is limited support for more favourable heights to build to our north and northeast. Overall, the PV is looking pretty strong. Both the AO and NAO are in strong positive territory up to Feb 1st with a downward curve appearing on both thereafter. If a notable cold spell is to occur, it will not be in the next two weeks imo.

    www.x.com/wolfeeire



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    A distinct lack of spaghetti there for a long way out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭bazlers


    Along way off put certainly something promising to look at at least.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,753 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    So is the scandi high option now a bust. Are we looking to the north west again?

    Well we can't blame an Arctic plunge into America if this one goes pear shaped.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,877 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    At the moment the models looks fairly bleak if your looking for cold and snow. This zonal pattern looks a bit of a prolonged yawnfest and could last into the first week of February or possibly beyond. After all the ups and downs after spending 3 weeks chasing a cold snap with no snow for most of the country, now seems like a good time to take a little break from model watching and let this zonality play out.

    At the moment it looks like high pressure could take up position close to us at some stage over the next few weeks which could deliver the very familiar winter pattern with high pressure to our south much of the time and any shots of real cold plunging into eastern Europe and Greece in particular.

    I don't feel as confident about February as I did a few weeks ago but we shall see what happens over the next few weeks. Hopefully by this time next week the models will be on to something to give us one last shot of hope to save winter. If we are still starring at zonal charts by second week of February with just a few cold outliers 10 days out i'll be throwing in the towel again for another winter, after which i'll begin concentrating on the late Spring and summer period.

    Post edited by Gonzo on


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭WolfeEire
    Clare (410ft asl)


    If you strip out UKMO long range chatter, noise about MJO phases and teleconnections, you are left with the rudimentary tools we have used forever. Included in that is trends on models. There is nothing to suggest a noteworthy cold spell within the next 10 days. Thereafter, signals are rather mixed but it does look a little drier and calmer.

    www.x.com/wolfeeire



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,753 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    That has been clear for a while. The best chance is early February onwards. I am not confident of a cold spell happening but those op run outliers could cause a flip in the ensembles to some thing colder around said time.

    As regards teleconnections, i agree they are a good guide to the broadscale/macro pattern and the possible weather we may have on the micro level, but they are not in any way a guarantee of any specific weather type for us. What happens on the micro level often will Trump any teleconnection that may indicate something else should be happening. For instance when i was told by someone that any milder weather would be a brief intrusion because of x, y z happening in the tropics or due to a mountain torque event in Asia.



  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭WolfeEire
    Clare (410ft asl)


    We will keep looking for those signs of a possible flip. Could happen overnight as you said.

    www.x.com/wolfeeire



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,877 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    just took a look at the EC46 and it's not looking particularly good for us and quite different to when I last looked at it about a week ago. For ages it was showing very strong blocking over Greenland but that is now downgraded massively for February. Next 2 weeks has low pressure over Greenland, hight pressure over southern Europe which will try to make a move over the UK and Ireland. At times it may drift out towards the Atlantic and little bit further to our north-west but never fully gets to Greenland. Heights over Spain/Portugal and Italy etc remain in place throughout February and heights often very close to us also so a lot of dry weather can be expected once we get the next week out of the way

    In terms of blocking the EC wants to bring blocking back for February but not in a position that favours us, it favours the United States, Canada and parts of Asia. If all this was to verify and usually it doesn't, the best we can hope for is some dry settled weather in February with high pressure anchored over us with inversion giving us frost and fog despite relatively high upper air temperatures.

    In terms of an easterly I think it could be sometime in March before we see one of those if at all, hope I'm wrong.

    The above graph by the ECM shows blocking has completely vanished into space since yesterday and a very positive NAO will be in affect over the next week. The trend is for blocking to start re-emerging in the final days of January but there is a higher chance that the NAO will stay positive than go negative. Chances of a negative NAO look slim at best with a small chance of that around mid February. To me this suggests overall we will be on the mild side of the block for much of February. Just over a week ago this was screaming major negative NAO in February with massive heights over Greenland throughout February, this idea has unfortunately fallen apart for now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,121 ✭✭✭squonk


    “the best we can hope for is some dry settled weather in February with high pressure anchored over us with inversion giving us frost and fog despite relatively high upper air temperatures.”

    Sounds good to me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,941 ✭✭✭.Donegal.


    ECM in nutshell. Often windy. Iberian high stubborn.



  • Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭bazlers


    Warming up in Canada. Thats the only crumb i can offer.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    Not a bad set up as we start into February.



This discussion has been closed.
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