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Ian Bailey RIP - threadbans in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭batman75


    The real tragedy of this case is that the murder of Sophie Toscan De Plantier still hasn't been solved. The longer it goes unsolved the more remote the chances of solving the case becomes. Whilst there was a self confessed suspect the case against him wasn't proved and he has died an innocent man re this case. None of us can say with any certainty why he would confess to an action he wasn't proven to have committed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭batman75


    Doesn't that make the lack of conviction all the more puzzling given how many cards were theoretically in the prosecutors favour? Was he a loose cannon who was an easy suspect for the Gardai or was it incompetence on behalf of the Gardai that let a murderer die an innocent man? Strange on the back of a barring order that he wasn't pursued for domestic abuse as said abuse was the reason for the order. The Gardai may have felt the failed attempt to convict him of murder might have prejudiced a conviction in that context.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,527 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    Regards the gardai botching the investigation, some did. The more professional forensic gardai did some tests however. They were unable to reproduce the injuries he said came from cutting trees. They also found evidence of burned clothes. And he also changed his alibi on at least one occassion with both him and his partner giving an initial false alibi. A false alibi alone would be considered a crime and raises question marks. There is more than enough evidence, circumstantial or not to put him squarely as chief suspect. But this case always lacked hard evidence, just as many similar cases have. But 9 times out of 10 the chief suspect is usually to blame once the hard evidence comes through or is presented in court.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭lbunnae




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,527 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    Yes of all the scenarios about the murder, the french hitman with a rock one is probably the most farcical and one which least stands up to scrutiny. This murder was certainly not planned in France.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭batman75



    Strange he wasn't jailed. Doesn't send out a good message to those who suffer at the hands of domestic abusers. Most likely put some off reporting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭lbunnae


    ah man , the amount of bastids who never see jail time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭batman75



    A large amount of that is fear on behalf of the victim. Though less likely guys too can be victims and can be too proud to report it.



  • Posts: 0 Ethan Putrid Cane


    I think domestic abuse is getting taken more seriously now by the Gardai. I have a male relatively who used to be physically threatened by his ex wife. There was no point in reporting it back in the day.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    Having read this thread, it seems he was an odd ball who was an alcoholic and a failed journalist who really craved attention and the limelight and notoriety and kept himself in the picture for the murder all the time, this was his only claim to fame. He was abusive towards his partners etc, but the big problem in the whole thing was the cops messed up with evidence and witnesses, was this for a cover up or just country coppers not good enough at the job. Answers won’t be forthcoming after such a long period of time. End of the day he is no loss to society.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    A couple of points.

    1: Just because the keystone cops screwed up like a Laurel and Hardy nightmare during the investigation, doesn't necessarily mean he didn't do it.

    2: Just because he was an abuser and allegedly said strange things after the murder (if the media reports are anything to go by), doesn't necessarily mean he did it.

    They could have done with Jessica Fletcher, Columbo or Mrs Marple in this case.

    Nobody will know the truth now unless something big happens.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,298 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Listened to the podcast about this which features bailey himself prominently. He comes across as an arrogant person who thinks he is so much cleverer than everyone else. His partner was completely beaten down (literally) to put up with all his ****. He seemed to delight in putting out false information about this case and continually put himself in the spotlight when there really was no need to. If he was innocent and wanted to put all this behind his, as he claimed, then he could have just shut up. I thought he was probably guilty of the killing after listening to that, and there was a Netflix special too. I doubt we will ever know at this stage though. Maybe his partner might come out with some information now that he has passed?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,596 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    My own opinion is that he's innocent.

    As far as we know he met her once in passing.

    So if you think about his movements on the fateful night, he went to the pub with his partner, meeting friends, getting ready for Christmas, writing his article etc.

    I can't see what would've compelled to even think about STDP, never mind get the idea into his head to travel miles to her house on a freezing cold night.

    If you meet someone once, within a week or month, you've completely forgotten about them and never think of them again.

    There's a chance he became infatuated with her, but I doubt it.

    I just don't see where he would've got the brainwave to head up to her house that late on freezing cold night, even if he was drunk and an eccentric. That's my reasoning based on putting myself in his shoes. I think his mind would've been preoccupied with his own life like Jules, her daughters, his friends, Christmas, writing his article etc.

    If STDP had been an ex, then I could see him going up there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,479 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    ... and half the population has less than average intelligence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,479 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Have you ever asked someone to do something and been told "I will, yeah."? Did you expect them to do what you asked?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭lbunnae


    Doesn’t explain the NYE confession whatsoever though does it? The ones where he was in tears saying he did it. And a couple testified to it. Sarcasm while crying is odd.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,074 ✭✭✭Deeec


    But that couple did not go to the gardai after this supposed confession. Why didn't they go to gardai straight away, Why did they wait months?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭lbunnae


    I don’t know, but I’d certainly believe the couple over Ian Bailey , a narcissistic woman beater.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Met him next day and had drinks with him in the pub.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,074 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Correct - hardly something you do after believing that person confessed committing a murder to you!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Malachy Reed didn’t go to the Gardai either- they came to his school and picked him up. He took several lifts from Bailey afterwards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,074 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Malachi wouldnt go to the mock trial in France either to speak against Bailey- his Mammy went instead of him which is laughable



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,676 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    I’m not an expert on this case but -

    the prominent scratches on his arms and face? According to Senan Moloney he made a few attempts to embellish the explanations for them.

    First he said he was cutting Christmas trees to sell, then it was a Christmas tree for his own house, then struggling with turkeys got involved.

    The scratches were not noticed when he was in the pub the night of the murder?

    he apparently was on the murder scene very early on the morning of discovery - although he said the first he heard of it was a phone call from a journalist around 2pm?

    The alibi changing at least once?

    Bailey adamant he hadn’t met Sophie (I think he eventually said he maybe met her once very briefly) yet multiple ppl say he knew her. And she mentioned a man who sounds very like him(writer/poet working on themes of violence) to her friend in France.

    He apparently “somehow” knew details of the murder scene that were not public - eg the missing wine bottle?

    His “black humour” apparent confessions on a number of occasions particularly when he was drunk?

    Add all that to his temperament and violent past.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭lbunnae


    If it quacks like a duck…. And yet you have people falling over themselves to say he didn’t do it. He was certainly rightly a suspect , not sure how anyone could debate that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,604 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    All of these were run through in what is taken to be the DPP report online.

    It deals with for example his alleged foreknowledge of the murder. He was a journalist, he lived in the area, very plausible he heard about the murder on the grapevine before he "should have". The DPP report sums it up as: "His behaviour is indicative of innocence."

    It looks into the scratches. If Bailey was scratched at the scene, supposedly in a drunken rage in a violent assault in the dark, how did he leave zero trace - no hair, no skin, no fibres, no blood. If he received cuts from briars at the scene, why did a witness (a dermatologist no less) not notice any such scars only a few days after the murder? If you have been lightly scratched gardening etc the scars may not be visible until the next day when it starts to heal over. The DPP report concludes:

    "Bailey’s explanation for the scratches is plausible, consistent and is supported by other direct and credible evidence."

    If you look at the reactions of the people who heard these so-called confessions, they didn't act at all as if they seriously thought they had heard a murder confession.

    His alibi is all over the shop, but that is not positive proof of guilt. He may well have enough to drink he doesn't have full recall of all of that night.

    https://syndicatedanarchy.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/30/

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,228 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    The scratches are a complete red herring.

    They were minor in nature and completely consistent with how he says is got them.

    People wrongly think the scratches were defensive wounds inflicted by Sophie, but it was the guards claim he got them from extremely sharp briars running after her and beating her to death. i.e. not inflicted by her. She had no alien DNA, tissue or blood under her finger nails.

    It was also the guards claim he was wearing a big black jacket, but he also had these minor scratches up his arms. Both can't be true.

    Anyway he never tried to hide them, if I just battered someone to death and I had evidence on my literal hands, I would have stuck on a pair of gloves, it was winter.

    The fiction journalist people here seem to think is infallible knows all that too, but that doesn't suit his narrative or get the clicks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    His involvement and knowledge immediately after the death

    Climbing trees and later remembered it was the turkeys too

    Confusion at first with the two of them over the alibi and the alibi dodgy itself

    Everything we know points to bailey as the likely killer





  • The issue is the legal system doesn’t work on the basis of if it quacks like a duck. They need hard evidence, beyond reasonable doubt that will stand up in court. All they had was circumstantial stuff and a lot of what basically amounts to hearsay and people’s analysis of his personality. That isn’t adequate to go to court with.

    The murder remains unsolved, despite the suspicions. It needs to be solved for the sake of some kind of closure being brought.

    If he’s the chief suspect and there are no other suspects, it’s very hard to see how it will proceed though, as you can’t put the dead on trial.

    It sadly could well end up being left in legal limbo as an unsolved murder.

    I think at the very least, there should be a permanent memorial to Sophie Toscan du Plantier. She was a hugely intelligent, creative and much loved woman with a whole life ahead of her and was clearly someone who adored West Cork too.

    It’s horrendous to think she met such a brutal end, particularly in a place that she probably saw as somewhat of a sanctuary.

    It’s important she’s remembered for who she was and not just a victim in a notorious murder.

    This grim case has probably changed and tightened investigation procedures, and I think we need to always remember how someone somewhere got away with murder and at the core of that was a lack of systems and lack of access to expertise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    This is the excerpt from the DPPs report about that "confession":

    Statements of Richie and Rose Shelley, taken on 2 and 5 July 1999 respectively were submitted by the Gardaí. Richie Shelley states that on New Years Eve 1998 he was drinking in Hackett’s bar with his wife. They were joined by Ian Bailey and Jules Thomas. At the end of the night, they went to the house of Jules Thomas and continued drinking there. The murder was discussed and Richie Shelley states that “the whole time Jules Thomas was supporting Bailey and saying he was innocent”. Richie Shelley then states that Jules Thomas went to bed and he and his wife were given sleeping bags by Bailey. However, he got the impression that Bailey was not comfortable having them in the house and he decided to phone his father to collect them. Richie Shelley slipped into Bailey’s room apparently looking for the phone. It should be remembered that at this time many people in the local community were convinced that Bailey had murdered Sophie Toscan Du Plantier and the community had been exhorted to obtain incriminating evidence in the matter. Bailey got out of bed and showed Richie Shelley where the phone was located. After making the call, Richie Shelley alleges that Ian Bailey came into the kitchen and cried “I did it”, repeating this about four or five times. In response, each time Bailey allegedly said “I did it”, Richie Shelley allegedly asked “you did what”? Bailey did not answer. However, when Richie Shelley allegedly persisted with the question, Bailey allegedly said “I went too far, I went too far”. Richie Shelley asked Bailey what he meant by saying he had gone too far, but Bailey did not answer him. Rose Shelley states that she overhead the “conversation between Ian and Richie about the murder, which frightened her to such an extent that she left the house immediately”. However, she also states “on New Years Night the exact words that Ian said to Richie I cannot be specific but what he did say I realised he was telling Richie that he did the murder”. An objective assessment of the alleged conversation between Richie Shelley and Ian Bailey does not demonstrate that the conversation was about the murder. Indeed, it is alleged that Richie Shelley had to persistently ask Bailey what he was talking about but he elicited no satisfactory response to the question. It is, however, matter of indisputable fact that Bailey has on other occasions consistently and publicly proclaimed his innocence.

    The next morning, all four people met up in the pub again, and Richie Shelley is alleged to have said to Bailey “up to last night I thought you were innocent but now I think you are guilty”.

    From the report of Inspector Horgan dated 27 July 1999 it appears that Richie and Rose Shelley have indicated that they did not come forward with the above information previously because they did not want an involvement in the case. This diminishes the credibility of their recollection still further. In fact Richie Shelley in his statement dated 19 June 2001 states that he did not come forward with the information until he was 24 approached by the Gardaí. If the alleged conversation took place he did not attach sufficient weight to it to even bother reporting it. Richie and Rose Shelley were collected from outside the Thomas house by John Shelley but neither Richie nor Rose bothered to tell John Shelley about the alleged admission


    So the people he "confessed" to didn't even bother reporting it until 6 months after the event? It's hard to lend much credibility to theor statement based on that alone



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