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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    A couple of weeks ago some units ran out of mortars rounds and 40 mm grenades which they are reliant on for close quarters engagements,the issue there is they then become solely reliant on artillery, what happens when the Artillery slows or god forbids stops,and this is a side effect of being solely reliant on the US to defend Europe



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Russia was suffering from an extremely lopsided economy & dangerous demographics crisis before the war: since its start, that demographic problem has got N times worse through the war dead, wounded & those who emigrated; the economy is in the shítter because of both the sanctions and the massive drain caused by the first point; and by all accounts the Klepocratic nature of Russias has been highlighted with Putin's dogged insistence to keep prosecuting this war. Worth reminding, so far approx. 350,000 Russians have died trying to hold on to 20% of Ukraine. That's dead - there will be countless more injured both physically and mentally. The country is utterly moribund, and I feel sorry for the ordinary Russians who'll have to endure yet another coup when Putin croaks.

    There's a solid argument Russia has never recovered from the collapse of the USSR and has simply handed control from one authoritarian regime to another; it just so happened that for the longest time Russia had gas and resources that Europe needed, alongside a bit of a black market of investment which helped keep our tech sectors and suchlike stable. The world held its nose as Russia pretended it was a normal Democracy; stuff like the football World Cup an obvious moral lapse to anyone looking closely (though expecting morality from FIFA is probably a stretch). Instead, the war has forced Europe to rethink its dependency on Russian gas - which IMO was the big gamble Putin took when he invaded; that Europe would be too afraid of losing access to resources to intervene or help in any way. For a moment, it worked, then it all unravelled when Ukraine told Russia to GTFO.

    Now, compare that with Ukraine: assuming there's no total breakdown of diplomatic relations when the war is over Ukraine is probably gonna continue its "love bomb" global tour and ensure that EU/US companies come in, rebuild and invest in Ukraine. Remember Ukraine is now a EU Candidate and that process is probably only gonna accelerate when Kyiv can focus on restoration of its economy. The country has its own resources of value (which I'm sure had nothing to do with Putin's intent), and while places like Bakhmut might not be worth rebuilding from scratch I'd be shocked if we didn't see a massive investment in infrastructure and construction from outside companies. While external help will be needed just trying to remove the tens of thousands of mines now littering Ukrainian fields.

    Ukraine might take decades, sure; but they'll have a plan and a goal, both of which "easily" obtainable. In that time Putin will die, Russia will collapse and the next great flashpoint will occur as yet again Moscow eats itself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,792 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The problem now though that Ukraine is now going to be the attacking side again soon.

    It looks like Ukraine is settling in for a sustained period of defensive operations , Building up supplies and also dealing with the shortage of soldiers, this is a country that has about 10% of the population under Russian occupation and another 25% in western Europe, that's an incredible problem for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,521 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    They don't have to be "given" the nukes, they can develop them themselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,550 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    But nukes are expensive to develop, create and maintain. Considering everything else Ukraine requires to get back on track as a functional country, I'd say nukes are far down their list of priorities



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,634 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    Russia has been in all out attack mode for 4 months now. Will this slow after Putin's reelection or is this the new normal where Russia mobilises 30k troop's a month indefinitely to replace the loses and keep this going. It's interesting how they attack so much during bad months of the year. I hope they go full steam ahead into the mud season as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭zv2


    I don't say i believe/disbelieve it but in Russia all kinds of things are possible. People who are capable of editing historical photographs to alter the perception of history are capable of anything.

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,808 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    "Again soon" ? Does that mean you don't consider the strikes on Russia's oil depots, weapons factories, naval bases and aircraft some kind of offensive attack?

    We're back to this same "Russia's so big it can't lose" argument that ignores the reality on the battlefield: Ukraine makes the most efficient use of its limited resources to accurately strike targets of signficant military and strategic value hundreds of kilometres behind the front lines, while Russia blindly lobs men and bombs in the vague general direction of Kyiv/Poland/America in the hope of hitting something important.

    Just because one starts with a great fortune, there's no guarantee one won't end up in a pauper's grave; and the same holds true for any (wannabee) emperor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,521 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    At first yes they will be, but in 10/20 years (and with a little under the table help from their friends) I could easily imagine a once again nuclear armed Ukraine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭XsApollo


    If Ukraine do get nukes, it won’t be with help from the west.

    the US doesn’t want anymore Nuclear capable countries, and would pull any support as would the EU.

    im sure any type of future integration in the EU or the like would be dependent on them not developing nukes.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,792 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    They are nice to see and they are important single strikes but they are only one slice of the pie.


    It's a matter of scale though. Ukraine are getting enough artillery for 2000 fired a day, on a 600 mile front, their soldiers talk of having 2 shells delivered and nothing again for days, and that's where the action is hottest in a 600 mile front.


    Israel fired 100k shells in the first 7 weeks in a small strip of land 15 miles long and that was it being secondary to air strikes, because the reality of urban warfare calls for that.


    Precision strikes by Ukraine are all well and good but they also need to level areas. The Russians were firing 60k a day at one stage.


    Russia can lose, If the will is there in the West, it can also have a victory of sorts, in that it holds what it has, that might come at near a million dead and injured and their economy on a par with Pakistan, this is the kicker though. Their leadership is willing to do that.


    The Ukrainians have been short changed for the first 2 years, their best troops are dead or injured or exhausted by the reality of war, the West should have backed them to the hilt from day one, stepping up military aid is far less effective now but it should start.


    Putin has more reason to be hopeful than this time last year and Zelensky has more concerns. The Ukrainians might be forced into defensive positions themselves, which is what is happening now, and a stalemate settles in.


    Stalemates, ceasefires etc, in the current wars we hear lots of are a benefit and victory of sorts for the aggressor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    It's only 220k shells, with first deliveries at the end of 2025. It's also to replenish NATO stocks and to supply Ukraine.

    Maybe countries will give more to Ukraine from their current stockpiles knowing they will be replenished in about 2 years time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,576 ✭✭✭Field east


    You forgot to mention that when Putin conscripts another 500000 into the army, - after the election, - there will be 500,000 vacancies created. These is my life people are not twiddling their thumbs and sitting on a wal looking for something to ‘excite’ them. They are more than likely drivers , service engineers, etc. the low hanging fruit has already been conscripted. So we can expect ‘ a bit more’ resistance when the next round starts



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,576 ✭✭✭Field east




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,792 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    A good 5 days of shelling by Ukraine in 2026.

    That's what that will buy, about 200k shells.

    It's a good step but if there isn't the same press release every week for the next year, it is immaterial.


    It feels like that Western armies became so reliant on technology and airpower that they overlooked the need to plan for wars of attrition, of duration and of annihilation. It was short term shock and awe, the balance was lost. Europe is looking at Trump in 2025 saying, no you pay your own bar tab from now on and it mostly isn't ready or willing to do that, just imagine the political reaction to govts saying we have to spend several percent a year on our armies, reintroduce conscription, and all it entails being able to be a society that pulls its own weight.


    If this isn't settled this year, it will just become stagnant lines with occasional hot spots back and forth.


    Ukraine needs a game changer for that to be avoided and where will that come from? Germany has certainly changed its tune and really stepped up, though it was disappointing to see Taurus missiles not been given, they are what they need, still they have changed and that counts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,576 ✭✭✭Field east


    No problem with that as long as it retains the right to have them if it wants. IMO When all this is ‘settled’ Russia should have ABSOLUTLY NO part in any decision that UKr makes to manage its state



  • Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭scottser


    Ukraine should recover faster than Russia, in theory at least. Russia is a corrupt shithole; at least Ukraine is addressing its corruption and improving oversight. It has access to Western funding and support and a clear recovery plan, whereas Russia is in thrall to China and is already scabbing ammunition from North Korea.

    Having said all that, now would be a great time to equip Ukraine properly and end Putin's insanity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    They used to have part of Soviet nuclear arsenal not their own and they never had actual control over them



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,808 ✭✭✭CelticRambler



    Israel fired 100k shells in the first 7 weeks in a small strip of land 15 miles long and that was it being secondary to air strikes, because the reality of urban warfare calls for that.

    Hardly a great example - is it? How safe and secure is Israel today, compared to how it was three months ago? Are we looking at a future of peace and tranquility for all the residents of the far eastern shores of the Mediterranean now, thanks to those 100k shells?

    Precision strikes by Ukraine are all well and good but they also need to level areas. The Russians were firing 60k a day at one stage.

    Still with the "might is right (and better)" Why does Ukraine need to level areas? Can you point to one single advantage such a tactic has brought to the Russian army in the last two years? Sure, they completely destroy towns like Marinka and Bakmut and can proclaim they've conquered another few square kilometres ... and yet that doesn't stop Ukraine driving their Black Sea Fleet out of the Black Sea, or their A50s out of the Azov Sea.

    As I've asserted before: just like in the Somme in WW1, the fighting in the trenches isn't moving more than a few metres east or west from one week to the next, but the effective frontline has moved a hell of a lot further east since the infamous "failed" counteroffensive of last year, and that's without levelling whole cities or killing thousands of civilians.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,792 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The article I saw said end of 2025, early 2026.


    It doesn't really matter though when it is such a small number. If it was 5 million for a summer offensive this year or ideally last year. It would be serious and important to the effort.


    That's out of reach though.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    1000 patriot missles won't start to delivered to NATO countries until 2027- 2030 at least



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,808 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Worth remembering, too, that there's already a plan in place for which EU country is responsible for what part of a post-war Ukraine. It's been a while since I saw it, but when you have 27 countries lined up with a clear map of who can repair/exploit what, the speed of recovery will have the citizens of Bryansk and Belgorod drooling into their empty soup bowls.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,792 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The only way to take cities or towns is to flatten them, that's it unless you want to waste an entire army running them down a street where a sub rate soldier can drop several of them from a window..

    You don't fight door to door. You put a shell through the house and then go in, as the Iraqis did in Mosul.


    Ukraine held in to Bakhmut for so long because they were turning it in to a neat grinder for Russia.


    What do you see as the benefit of forcing Ukraine to fight attritional battles against a dug in enemy while being short of arms.


    Why would the Ukrainians or anyone else take the past route which has been consistently shown that urban fighting without massive suppressive fire is the quickest way to destroy your own army?


    The risk of your approach is that after a few months Ukraine will have nothing left manpower wise.


    Might is right?

    In war you either kill or injury so many enemy combatants that their army is forced to retreat or go home.


    You hit their infrastructure again and again so that their society can not be a fully functioning support to their army or be willing to endure the price.


    Effective lines far from the front. They have been the norm for decades and usually at a much greater scale than either Russia or Ukraine have done to date and neither have been game changers



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    I'm so sure about that,there is plans involving support and access to financial aid for the Ukrainians to rebuild themselves I haven't seen a plan where Ukraine gets divided into separate sections where 27 EU states step in to rebuild, but it there is any kind of down turn or recession in Europe those plan's could change again as well as political wills



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,521 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    That's not to say they won't have their own in the future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,792 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    No but it is theoretical, in 30 years time they might have one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Still don't see under any circumstances they get nukes ,I definitely do see any will from the international community to assist them either



This discussion has been closed.
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