Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Yes, although Afghanistan did have an environment more conducive to such asynchronous operations, and a more independent \ dispersed population.

@threeball

What Russia wants to do and what the can do are two very different things, and we've seen this already. The idea that they could launch a successful ground invasion against a well-equipped European country, particularly where supported by allies, is pretty far fetched, given how they have failed so far to do this against a Ukrainian army using NATO hand-me-downs.

But I share your doubts about any Western nation savouring the idea of a missile landing in their city or town. That doesn't mean, however, that they would capitulate if it did. Harrowing as that is, we've also seen in history how such things focus the mind. If it happened in your city or your town - and especially if it killed or maimed people you know and love - you'd probably want to fight or support those doing so on your behalf.

Russia does have a lot of nuclear weapons, but once those start flying around, war becomes a bit pointless because the sides stand to gain nothing.

you seriously think the us or the EU would help Ukraine get nukes?

ukraine might be trying to change, but it still has a soviet hangover., and Russians are entrenched there.

the country could still swing back under Russia in the future, depending on what happens there. ( the weakness of democracy is the public can vote in some lunatic) the likes of china russia and North Korea don’t have that problem.

Last thing the world needs is another nuclear state gone rogue.

No idea, maybe that includes transport, fitting out a factory.

Lidl need to do them.

Even at €8'000 a pop, but with guaranteed 90-95% accuracy, one of those shells can cause millions of $ worth of damage. and that would be very good value for money.

Prices for shells have gone up

They were about 2000 euros before the war and now , if you check internet you can find reports of 2000 to 8000

But Rheinmetall the German manufacturer recently got an order, probably for Ukraine and sold them for 3300 euros each

Still expensive, never thought they would cost that much

https://www.technology.org/2023/01/05/how-much-do-155-mm-artillery-rounds-cost-now-and-how-many-are-fired-in-ukraine/

They apparently went to the UK ,but the current market rate is still €8000 per 155 shell, considering the numbers now being ordered that price should have fallen by now but it's still a relatively small production ,

But profits first and foremost for theses companies

"Last thing the world needs is another nuclear state gone rogue."

I agree, but if they decide they are going to develop a nuke program who will stop them?

They will pull the israeli defence and say they need them to ensure this never happens to them again.

My point is that Europe or the US won’t support them doing so.

of course they can’t stop them, I’m sure they can pressure them into not doing so tho, in regards to Aid in rebuilding or being accepted into nato or the EU

If Russia aren't so far gone by December 24 as to be in steady and protracted retreat it won't matter who is in power in Washington.

It'll be 3 years roughy to the day of starting that the next US President is in power, whoever it is.

Their first day, whatever they decide will not be more important than the 3 past years and what happened.

In an ideal world Western Europe would step up but that is not going to happen and the problem is that Washington knows it, it is hard to see Biden continuing to support and dedicate time to this fight as the election comes closer and having to explain why money is going to a war in Europe, time is not on Kyivs side whoever is in power in Washington, Interest will wain even among those most committed to Kyiv, especially with Iran becoming such an aggressive threat.

I think that Western Europe should have viewed this as a key security issue and a war where anything but a Russian defeat is a century defining event, where society and the economy in Europe should have been acting as such, that Europe was in the fight but not in the ground.

That wont happen and we all will have to live with the fallout.

putin's empire has base interest rates of 16% to try control rampant inflation which was over 7% last year, making the economy weaker when before their invasion of Ukraine the productivity was smaller than that of Italy. The count of troops killed in Ukraine to hold onto 18% of the country they tried to destroy are moving steadily towards 400,000 and are likely to go past this figure well before any elections in the USA in November. While it is grim for Ukraine that they still have to endure indiscriminate attacks on urban areas by putin's terrorist state it is a sign of how little hope putin now has for success on the battlefield that this is the only type of offensive actions they are left with to distract from the troop losses that regularly reach about a thousand a day and massive equipment losses that will leave putin's raw new recruits with increasingly very little left to fight with. The EU has committed to bypass Hungary blocking 50billion euros worth of funding and there are billions in frozen assets of the russian federation that are likely to be freed up to help rebuild Ukraine after the damage putin's attacks have caused. EU membership on the horizon, a growing indigenous arms industry and an army that now is proving quite effective at killing moskovyte invaders means to me I can't see how it is as grim for Ukraine as pro putin posters would like to make out. Trump wont be able to save putin even if he wanted to. Wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the talk of slowing aid to Ukraine was not just a ploy to suck in more of putin's forces to the meat grinder they have made for themselves in Ukraine.

It would have all depend on what there purpose was and how they were set up of they existed,they could have deployed large numbers to Ukrainian border positions , under peace enforcement rules maybe , another issue would they have deployed to a non EU state , I don't think there would have been more weapons,the European military industry has be whittled down to Only a handful of companies since the fall of the Soviet union,but look at Poland they went out of the EU to rebuild and modernise there military mainly the US and South Korea,

South Korea is producing armour and weapons that exceed some of the best NATO countries have to offer outside of the US , in Europe you primarily have rheinmetall and saab who produce the lions share of land sea and air systems. All the while the usual infighting is still going on between the usual suspects,

An all European army would have to be done different,there will be no point if they have spend decades trying to discuss which country will host the HQ.

One of the most common shared aspects here among most pro Putin posters is their call for unequivocal support for a Ukrainian victory and giving them the weapons they need to kill Russian soldiers in numbers far beyond anything seen rather than the commitment to Ukrainian forces just getting enough to limit advances.

Ukrainian Cabinet Ministers, Zelensky himself, nearly all the senior military figures are hoarse calling for more arms and they point out that without US aid they would be losing.

Talk of solidarity etc is cheap and it's not a patch on getting what they need to fight a war.

Russian forces have had an extra year to fortify the land they have taken, it was hard last year, the same approach this summer will be worse.

So they need to have overwhelming firepower, aerial, artillery, missiles and where is that going to come from?

Europe and America are too willing to let Russia hold a lot of what they have already taken. Ukraine will set up it's own industries but it will never be at a scale to reconquer the taken land.

Ukraine were blessed that Russia and the Red army are led by Muppets, the Kremlin are blessed that the West didn't hand the courage or will to see Ukraine win.

The Ukrainian minister for armaments pointed out recently that the West needs to rapidly rearm because it cannot maintain basic levels and support Ukraine and Israel at the same time. Both of which he views as vital.

Prediction, Ukraine have one more offensive in it, the west will not supply anywhere near enough to make it a success and it will mire in a stand off/ cessation in the next 12 months with Russia holding most of what 8tvhas taken. The cost of that to Europe will dwarf anything it should have given, it's century defining and not in a good way but in the type of way that fills history books.

Ukraine will rightly feel that it was screwed over by the West and not given enough to seize the initiative in 22 and 23.

It's really been immoral having Ukrainian forces expected to attack fortified positions without air support, without strong artillery and mostly with weapons made during the soviet union.