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Ireland to join NATO...

  • 23-01-2024 1:48pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭MikeSoys


    Fresh chatter that NATO is looking to include more countries into its umbrella in preparation to save western influence globally against Russia and others. Ireland is listed as a country they would like to include. I think we should stay neutral,our location means we can stay neutral - not sure though if war3 goes full on would we allow US NATO to land, refuel etc in Ireland before going onto east Europe.

    Post edited by Manic Moran on


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,428 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Our location means we *cannot* stay neutral you mean?

    In a conventional multi-theatre conflict, Ireland's geographical location is far more strategically significant now than it was in WW2, or would be in a nuclear war. For reasons of significant communications and energy infrastructure as well as economic value of the seas. Why else would our EEZ be full of naval activity, including electronic intelligence vessels from as far away as China?

    We aren't in NATO, we won't be in NATO, but to the Russians, and everyone else, we are an inseparable part of the north Atlantic western alliance of NATO and the EU. Inextricably linked.

    And to that point, we are now on the inside of that information sharing and cooperation envelope, come what may.




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Yep, cause what the nations of NATO really want is another nations that has absolutely no intention of spending on defence. And if we ever see WW3 the idea of "neutrality" is going to last just as long as it takes for the first shots.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Or have no problems with Russia invading its neighbours, and lets not even touch the comments/actions of a pair of MEPs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    As someone who doesn't really GAS about NATO, if we joined fine, if we don't OK, it basically doesn't change our own issues either way.

    But people don't seem to grasp that the World's geopolitical/security situation is deteriorating and will get a lot worse...the comforting stability of the old Cold war will be looked back fondly to what's coming..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭Psychlops




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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Iceland has a strategic position and no way of creating a credible defence capability, we just won't spend. Its already been briefed that members have no interest in us joining for example because we freeload.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,428 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I agree with this.

    As I type, a third round of attacks are underway by coalition air and naval forces on Houthi positions in Yemen.

    One of about a dozen tinderboxes that could tip us all over.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,428 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    In peacetime, I'd agree with you.

    But I feel like we're half in, and half out of peacetime right now.

    Turkey approved Sweden's membership today, so things are moving on.

    A NATO air and naval presence in Ireland could come about swiftly and unexpectedly, at the stroke of a government pen. I can't say what circumstances might directly precipitate that, but a whole lot of unforeseeable and frankly unthinkable things have happened over these last few years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    Iceland and Luxembourg were always given the dispensation that they would never be able to generate meaningful conventional forces, but Iceland's huge strategic postion in the GIUK gap and them paying for a lot of basing needs etc and Luxembourg's paying an outsized proportion for the AWACS fleet, generating forces here they could, buying an A400M even with no AF for it etc etc meant they were given the benefit..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,428 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Correct.

    I should say the news agencies got it wrong, there were no further strikes on Yemen tonight, the information from the UK MoD was expanded on last night's attack.

    It just goes to show, even in this instant information World, the message can go awry.



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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    We are not neutral as we are required to come to the aid of any member state of the EU under the terms of the treaty of Rome. So it almost a certainty that we will be committed to any future war on European soil.

    A 42.7 of the treaty states:

    If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter.

    Neutrality was only ever government policy, that is until the voters decide otherwise in a referendum. Oh and France have invoke this article in the past and Ireland responded by sending additional Irish troops ton UN peace keep duties to release French troops needed back in France.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 374 ✭✭vswr


    While a lot of people map "NATO membership" to 2% GDP of military hardware and commitment to wars some would say there is no public interest to participate in, this has never been the case. 2% can be formed from various means, and any offensive participation has been voluntary.

    (Some people still don't like it to be pointed out the DF has had some form of participation in the majority of NATO involved ops since the 90's, as non members and subsequently partners for peace members)

    While it's argued from a conventional warfare sense, Ireland would be low on the target list. In the world of hybrid warfare, it it very much in the top10 of target countries. It was this that prompted the joining of the CCDCOE. On the back of this, there is a further ongoing argument that Ireland's active security efforts securing technological supply chains and critical infrastructure (used by NATO counties) could very much so count towards the 2% GDP measure is a very interesting one. If it succeeds, there is no counter argument of "well we can't afford the 2% if we can't even build houses, hospitals or schools".... as we're technically already covering most (if not all) of it.

    Interesting times though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    You finished son?...several people in this thread have served in the mlitary. At least one has been to a war. So I say this with no due respect......



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2




  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    You are free to believe whatever you want to believe, but A 42.7 is real and covers more than just military capabilities. Expecting Russia to start drawing distinctions between member states when it comes to military strikes is not going to happen. In times of war food supplies, medical equipment etc are needed in large quantities and Ireland has the ability to supply all of those. Neutrality is no longer a viable strategy, even here in Switzerland we have quietly given up on it and are supplying military hardware on a more flexible basis to EU states.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2




  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    delete.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    He doesn't know what you're talking about..he doesn't know there are legalities/conventions on neutrality and we meet/never met virtually any of them


    Anyway we get these lads rocking up every so often to tell us what they believe something is, with nothing to back it up bar a black belt in University debate jitsu, so time to mute...



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I love the view that in the event of another Global War somehow we can sit behind our "magical neutrality shield" and all the bad things just pass us by, particularly when this week we had an example of a Russian attack helicopter overflying our troops at their UN base...



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Abram Icy Soul


    We are not joining NATO.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 374 ✭✭vswr


    I love that assertion, when we've technically joined their Cyber division already, and are in the Partneship for peace program.... Ireland couldn't be any closer to being in NATO, without actually saying they are fully fledged members, than they are at the moment.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Well if Vlad wants to open up a second front to take the pressure of, landing fifty thousand troop in Ireland is a very easy option.... and 27 nations are committed to come to our aid....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 374 ✭✭vswr


    The EU response on paper is "wooly" and untested.

    If it was as firm as you make it out to be, there would have been no need for Sweden or Finland to join NATO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭MikeSoys


    its well reported but in the uk with the low army recruitment numbers they are talking about conscription

    from dailyMail - General Sir Patrick Sanders, Chief of the General Staff, will stress the need for ministers to 'mobilise the nation' ....

    ...when the rich wage war its the poor who die

    fighting for other things but the right to have 'Strawberry Frappuccino With A Twist' on a coffee menu.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    No they aren’t, that’s not even close to what he said.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,143 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    Considering we're becoming a social state for third world chancers I don't want us spending 2% of our GDP on defense. And considering we have a huge debt to repay.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    Oh good....



  • Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭zone 1


    better of to join , we need NATO to protect or airspace and sea as it is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Well at least you get to use the ignore function.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,428 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Yet you came all the way here specially, just to let that fetid turd fall out of your mouth.

    Go back to sleep you complete waster.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    LOL...did you join up again just to whine?...



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    It's the same lad who got banned on this thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Dazler97


    We can't as where a neutral country simple as .......



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    That and arguing with other posters on B.ie who are trans....



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    I should hope not. Bunch of warmongering, destabilising, crazy lackeys of an out of control, bumbling behemoth called USA is what they are. Stay well away not that it makes a difference but for moral reasons alone. In my humble opinion.

    Probably not going to be a popular opinion here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    You'd be surprised, I and I'm not going out on a limb here I think, a number of others here are ambivalent on NATO....I don't really trust the US gov, the issue is I trust the league of autocracies far less.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,904 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Are Nato the lads that are selling tracker mortgages?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Dont get me wrong, I dont trust the autocracies either. I just think NATO hasn't done anything stabilising in a while. Quite the opposite, aggravating everyone in sight and basically a tool for US hegemony.

    I think Ireland is fine where she is. Aligned with the West and within the EU but well detached from any ill advised 'adventures' the usual suspects seem so prone to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭MikeSoys


    I'd be concerned myself. America first policy with a country that mostly could survive on its own without the rest of West if things got too difficult (unsure about their dept issue). Key is middle east(was kremlin behind creating another front?) Nato has enough to take on Russia at the moment. If things went nuclear its likey on foward bases(east Europe) and other military sites are targeted before people start to reason.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Dazler97




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 374 ✭✭vswr


    For a start, unravelling numerous supply chains and R&D permits to multinationals which feed technology into numerous NATO weapons systems would be a bit of a kick to the teeth to Irish GDP.

    Also, something being looked at is the legality of data in transit and at rest, held within and transiting Irish ICT infrastructure, which, if you were to wave the neutrality stick, would technically not allow any connections or information transiting or data being stored, to be used in an active conflict (if you have an answer how to even approach policing that, without infringing any data laws (its catch 22) you will be a multi billionaire).

    The time of hiding as "neutral" from a conventional warfare perspective.... people/weapons/actively picking a side etc... is over (although some will say that has been over a lonnng time).

    From a Hybrid warfare perspective, we are very much aligned with NATO.

    With how things are progressing in the world, we are inching more and more to the conventional and hybrid domains colliding.



  • Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭MikeSoys


    Chatter.... February 2024 is a key month for clarification. No idea myself but that's the month something is to occur in east. Poland I understand 🤔



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Do we have the ability to deter hostile powers from using our air/sea space to carry out hostile attacks against ourselves or other nations?



  • Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭MikeSoys




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,249 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Whatever about joining NATO it would be a good idea to have national service for a period like neutral Switzerland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭65535


    We are already in NATO - the Partnership for Peace part.

    We are not 'Neutral' - if we were then the USSR would not have landed in Shannon on their way to Cuba back in the day and today the US Air Force would not be landiing there today either.


    We are 'Non Aligned' - If you want to join the full blown NATO then be prepared for 'boots on the ground here' - AND paying a percentage into the NATO kitty - the NATO umbrella is not cheap - unless you adopt the Icelandic situation - they rent out Keflavik Air Force Base and no US personell are allowed off base.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    NATO members pay for their own defence spend, its not some joint "pot" that everything goes into (whether each pays enough is a different question)



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