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Global warming

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,590 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Perhaps it's about time councils stopped selling licenses for cutting down woodland areas to build privately owned housing developments.

    Many acres have been cut down here just for developers to profit from the schemes.

    Whereas there are a ridiculous number of currently empty buildings that could have been redeveloped.

    But who is going to tell countries like India and Brazil to stop clearing forests/woodlands for housing?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,224 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Ireland has the lowest forest coverage in Europe, we can hardly point fingers at India or China.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,590 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Perhaps asking those countries to cut emissions?

    Or tax them for their Carbon Output?

    Or is that only for a citizenry that are both captive and gullible enough to pay up?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,557 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    No we don't

    That also doesn't account for hedgerows, etc. There was also an article last year where a lot of our tree cover wasn't counted as it was excluded by the SW scanning the imagery. I'll try dig out the link to that. If memory serves me right the adjusted figure for cover was 18%



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,224 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    no it's 11% or something, of which around 9% is sitka spruce tree farms for profit. so a couple of % of natural woodland, pretty disgraceful. you even notice it in england how much more natural forest there is. only the tiny island of malta has lower coverage than ireland.

    don't know if the stats account for hedgerows or not but they're being destroyed too




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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,557 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    I'm out now since you dismiss actual facts to go with the made up number. Good lad

    Anyway, here's the report about the tree cover outside of forestry.

    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adh4097



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    All I would say is Ireland has a lot of room for improvement on how many trees are around.

    Can never have enough of them I reckon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,109 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,557 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Yep we should plant a lot more native broadleaf trees. End this horn we have for sitka. I will disagree about the "never have enough". There clearly is a limit to what we should plant, and where it should be done. None of the supports for landowners are adequate to convert land to forestry. You can see that over the past number of years where plantings have decreased as government supports changed



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    Absolutely, thinking of the bigger picture.

    I think farmer’s should be letting space for trees on their land anyway, there’s so beneficial for many reason’s.

    I guess government policy should be to encourage more of this.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,119 ✭✭✭Shoog


    What Monk says is a more accurate description of Irish woodland than your own. A few percent of native and 9% of spruce plantation.

    As for hedgerows, the management encouraged by councils means they have virtually no biodiversity or carbon sequestering value (ie yearly flailing).



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    one of the reasons hedgerows are so important in ireland is because we've so little native woodland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,119 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Unfortunately most farmers and councils despise hedgerows and take great delight in flailing them to within an inch of their life on an anual basis. This means that most of the valuable fruiting shrubs/trees never get a chance to fruit and so they offer virtually no food value for wildlife. A hedgerow needs to be managed on at least a three years cycle in order to allow at least a third of the hedge to come to fruit.

    Irish hedgerows as currently managed are no substitute for the missing native woodlands. A wood itself is not even considered mature until it reaches a few hundred years old of continuous growth and progression, so the loss of native woodland is effectively irreversible.

    As to the issue of farmers setting aside an area for native woodland - given the marginal size of many/most Irish farms - this is a luxury most farmers simply cannot afford. If Ireland wants more woodland of biodiversity value the onus has to fall on government to make this possible. Since governments have refused to commit to any environmental policy with a time horizon of more than a few years - the situation with regard to farmers committing to increase native woodland cover, with obligation times of centuries, it can never change.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    And they cut them at the time of year where berries & fruits etc start to come in season

    And when most wildlife need food & habitat the most. Winter!

    And they do this every single year

    Councils should be leading by example & encourage more hedge laying

    Help’s with road safety also especially in rural road’s.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,557 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    On the 3 year hedge thing, it's a bloody nightmare to try trim them after that much growth. You really need a saw on a machine to do a proper job. The flail machines just chew it up and delay regrowth



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,109 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    I think it's in our culture to hate or be ignorant about nature. The little amount of space we set aside for it is shocking.

    People say they love nature and animals etc etc. But you don't see it in practice. It only registers if it's of direct financial value. E.g. money to grow native trees or Killarney national park for tourism.

    You could plant most of the "unproductive" land with trees and let it go wild very cheaply.

    Nobody would notice until the Irish Independent posted an article from the New York Times on the top 10 places in the world to visit. And then most people think, oh, my house price might have gone up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,557 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    The EU have put pressure on and we aren't allowed plant unproductive land (namely peat soils) any longer as the disturbance to the soil released more emissions than the trees would ever capture. Irelands forestry is now a carbon source - https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/managed-forestry-now-a-carbon-source-rather-than-carbon-sink/



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,119 ✭✭✭Shoog


    There is a lot of unproductive Irish land which is not peat based. The fact that we try to farm it is the problem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,557 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    True. Currently worth more to farm though. The forestry incentives are piss poor to convert.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    You don’t even need to plant trees here. If you rest land trees & scrub will grow naturally here.

    And be far most resilient than one’s grown in nurseries.

    Whether it’ll be the type of tree you want or need is the problem.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    Weve been this way for thousand’s of year’s, Kicking the can down the road.

    And it’s very sad. What are we passing onto the next generation.

    Education is the only way



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭thinkabouit



    Guess I’m not the only one who agrees that soil is the answer to all our problems.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you realise that even if the environmental media association awards are legit, the 'best documentary' award is rewarding the craft of documentary making, rather than rewarding what the documentary is about?

    your conclusion about soil would be akin to someone concluding that boxing is the best sport, based on 'when we were kings' winning the best documentary oscar in 1996.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭thinkabouit




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,557 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Reviews aren't great. Here's one example

    Though improving soil health is a good thing



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    huh; i think not!

    "“Common Ground” is a well-meaning PSA that waters down the complex history, practices, and systems of American industrial agriculture into something palatable for audiences looking to feel good about the bleak future of this dying planet without actually having to do any hard learning, thinking, or direct action."



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    Suit yourself. You might learn something though.

    And that review was the biggest streaming pile of crap i ever read.

    And The hard learning, thinking or action?

    Buy organic & well produced regenerative food. Not the cheap crap that keeps the destruction of the planet going. Very simple really.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,119 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Soil health is the greatest problem facing human civilization since we depend on it for food, modern agriculture is the cause of the crisis.

    That is a very difference thing to stating regenerative grazing is the solution. Soil scientists and ecologists know the solutions - it's just a question of getting the agribusiness model to listen to the experts.

    Regenerative grazing will never address issues of soil depletion and leaching of nutrients within the arable sector and it is a big distraction to what we need to do in all areas of agricultural practice. Despite what some people claim, man cannot live by shifting to a more carnivorous diet and regenerative agriculture has nothing to say outside of it's narrow focus.

    The primary function of animals should be to recycle, trap and bind nutrients in a relatively closed cycle - the organic principle of management.

    The lesson we should learn is from soviet era agriculture where the peasants produced the bulk of the food on less than one percent of the available agricultural land through market gardening. The planned agribusiness model was a complete failure.

    The issue is complex but the proposed solution of the regenerative crowd is reductive and over simplified.

    Post edited by Shoog on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,557 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Agree with all that but modern agriculture, led by those same (or previous generation) of scientists and ecologists have put things where they are. Coupled with the governments of this world directing land owners down certain paths while also demanding high quality, very cheap food and not supporting the primary producers enough in that goal. Therefore they'll try do more with what they have just to stand still.

    Back 100 years ago cover crops were sown after tillage, animals out wintered on it, etc. That all was canned as things evolved. Thankfully we're going back that direction. But, the government nearly scuppered it by demanding excessive lie back areas which meant no tillage farmer would allow out wintering resulting in more demands on the grass landmass for winter feed, more winter housing and associated storage of waste. And they made at the time cover crop planting was happening and gave no livestock owners a chance to change tact where they had planned to out winter but then couldn't. Thankfully, sense prevailed



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    The same thinking that’s got us in this mess isn’t going to fix it.

    A new paradigm & idea’s are needed.



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