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"average Dublin house prices should fall to ‘the €300,000 mark" according to Many Lou McD.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Blut2



    "The majority of new recruits coming from non-EU countries, particularly India and the Philippines.

    Some 1,584 new registrants qualified in Ireland, and 4,542 qualified outside the EU – a rise of 50pc."

    We're importing very large numbers of foreign nurses to try and fill in the gaps, but at the same time losing more experienced/senior Irish nurses. 75% of the new nurses we hire each year are now non-EU nationals. Thats the definition of a recruitment crisis, if you're having to import thousands of people a year to fill jobs you can't fill from your own population.

    And even with this massive importation we're still far below the capacity increase required to actually staff our hospitals to the levels required to function - as seen above, and in plenty more examples if you care to look.

    Our staffing numbers are required to increase significantly each year just to stand still due to 1) our massive population increases 2) our aging population and 3) understaffing hangovers from the 2010s austerity years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Blut2


    If we had a functional, reasonably priced housing market we might get away with some of the bad working conditions, but at current housing market prices you can't blame them.

    Starting salary for a young nurse in Dublin is €34k as of right now, and €35k for a garda. Theres absolutely no way to live in Dublin on that and have any quality of life in 2024 if you're paying market rent. Especially not when you're college educated, and willing to work a difficult, stressful job - there are much better options available.

    Its stuff like that that really shows the problem with our current government. We're putting billions of euros into a national savings fund. We're spending €2bn a year housing new immigrants to the country. It would cost comparatively very little to add €5k a year to the starting salary of every junior nurse and garda in the country - €400mn was one figure I saw quoted - but would help recruitment, retention, and morale hugely in all of those areas.

    Which would obviously have fantastic effects for the country in general, with better staffed and functioning health and police services. And would also be a morally good choice you'd think - I can't imagine many voters would have a problem with it. But our government very deliberately chooses not to.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,496 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    AFAIK, the trade unions are against a Dublin allowance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Blut2


    There should be a Dublin allowance as well, ideally, but that wasn't what I was talking about.

    A €5k bump to the starting wage for nurses/gardai everywhere in the country wouldn't be remotely excessive. The unions are very much not against that, they're crying out for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Don't those "outside" forces become "inside" forces once they emigrate to Ireland?

    Or do you only count the pale ones?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭abozzz


    If 100 million people arrived into ireland tomorrow, no, they don't become "inside forces". The ability to physically move is no basis for merit.

    As to your insinuation of racism to obfuscate reality, it's weak and meaningless.

    Mass migration was a terrible idea from inception, and as the rotten fruits of it bloom, each day it will become ever more undeniable.

    Unprecedented population arrives from abroad, unprecedented capacity crises ensue. To fix the housing crisis, first and foremost, means ending mass migration, at a minimum. There are no two ways about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,334 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    The housing market is not bad for everyone in the country. Yes, Dublin is expensive, but the same problem is for young people in London, Paris, New York, Sydney , Melbourne, L.A. or other big cities. Dublin is a capital city: there were plans for government decentralisation a few decades ago but the public servants in Dublin would not move out. Down the country property is affordable for many people. You mention starting wage for a Garda: well, average wage for a Garda is , according to the C.S.O., over €82,000 per year, which is enough to get a very decent house in most counties in Ireland.

    I agree. The huge immigration we have seen in recent years has only added to the crisis.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,500 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Blut2


    You're comparing Dublin to the most expensive cities on the planet, global metropolises with populations up to 10 times our size, with vast concentrations of wealth. And cities currently notorious for their own worst in history housing crises in Australia. Dublin is a small, regional city. With a very low population density, ie plenty of underutilised land. Theres absolutely justfication for our housing prices being on par with New York or London.

    Averages are always skewed by the high outliers, median is a far more reliable figure. That aside, what use is an average wage of €82k, heavily influenced by high wages paid to those in the force 20 years+, to a young garda earning €35k trying to rent in Dublin? There are far more of the latter. And the latter are the ones who we're having huge problems recruiting and retaining, because they can't afford to live in Dublin on that wage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,969 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Great news that an employer is stepping up to the plate and providing housing at reasonable cost to their employees.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Those pesky foreigners. Making your coffee, delivering your take away, driving your taxi, keeping your banking app secure, wiping your granny’s arse in the nursing home,saving your life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭Cheddar Bob


    That Phil Ni Shagghahahshagsha wan in your first link was a lockdown extremist. In October 2022 she was demanding we return to national mask wearing and, I presume, some forms of lockdown.


    You don't get to play that game then cry when the chickens come home to roost.



  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭abozzz


    All very sound arguments until you realise that blink of an eye ago, irish people were doing all of that anyway.

    So whats the benefit of mass migration that offsets all multiple and very serious capacity crises it has created?

    "But the economy!"

    Well, when you defuck the leprechaun economics of this country, you go from an impressive sounding 200k gdp per capita to a far more sobering 40k per capita. Wow, suddenly the affordability of mass migration sounds expensive, doesnt it? When adjusting further for the real economic value of mass migration, it shrinks again, leaving you with an economy that grows off the back of mass migration for the sake of *drum roll* more mass migration. Cue meme of "its effing nothing"

    In other words, its bad news and net negative for everyone now, and increasingly so into the future for their children that can be experienced on a daily basis.

    No housing, worse healthcare, less nursing homes, social immobility, demographic collapse, the impoverishment of educational opportunity, increasibgly fewer essential staff, ever worsening transport. And so on.

    So yes, it's mightily impressive for economic illiterates that someone from far away can pour a cup of coffee, but to the rest of us, it's not. Not at the price it costs.


    If you want to solve the housing crisis, you solve what created it, mass migration. No ifs or buts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭abozzz


    More succinctly, mass migration is the candles of the housing crisis


    Hence why we are where we are, a refusal to own up to reality for fear of *something*



  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭abozzz


    From reading current research, there seems to be an attributable cost of between 1% and 7% on housing per 1% increase in the population.

    Scrappily, if the average house price in Dublin is 430k, and 300k is the target, then that would be achieved by reducing the population by about 380k people.

    What are the odds that if i were to crudely investigate the percentage increase of housing cost versus imported population, I'd arrive at an eerily similar number over time going in reverse?



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,531 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...its all about the money, the more money made available to the property market, in particular credit based money, the higher prices go, same problem all over the the world, particularly in advanced economies, but nobody will admit this....

    ...the most common scape goats become those pesky foreigners, who clearly must be running to our banks and demanding loans in order to be purchasing our properties!



  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭abozzz


    You're almost there.

    Mass migration is the fuel by which this system runs.

    When you have the likes of foreign interests splashing multiple millions on irish housing, they arent banking on the housing crisis being solved. They are banking on the crisis continuing.

    And what could be more attractive than a government hellbent on providing infinite over-demand through mass migration?

    And so on and so forth through every cancerous branching vein of it.

    Take the mass migration away, watch the house of cards fall.

    Regardless of the wretched crooks that invited/allowed mass migration, the existential problem is the mass of people who arrived. If the crooks burst into flames this very instant, now what about the housing crisis?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,993 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Well, when you defuck the leprechaun economics of this country, you go from an impressive sounding 200k gdp per capita to a far more sobering 40k per capita

    I see we are just completely making numbers up now. Neither of these figures are remotely correct. Our GDP per capita is nowhere near that high, and our modified GNI per capita is significantly higher.

    If you want to solve the housing crisis, you solve what created it, mass migration. No ifs or buts.

    What created it is not building enough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 Dibus


    The funny thing is, Ireland was in the stone age compared to other European countries before the Celtic Tiger which is, largely, foreign investment. Now Ireland is rich thanks to them and in a much better economic position. If you want to remove migrants, you would need to simultaneously, remove foreign investment. Because, let's be realistic, these companies are the ones bringing in immigrants to work in Ireland and a huge reason why Ireland is as rich as it is today. Under your rhetoric, you should remove them as well because, ´´hey, they're the reason why housing is as bad as it is now right? Let's remove them and we shall be much better off´´.

    Now, you've mentioned some other nationalities (non-EU), which you said don't help employment and basically are the ones needing housing and at the end of the day, the ones which are bringing on the strain to housing in Ireland (with the additional other foreigners who are employed).

    Do you know how many Irish nationals are living off welfare? How many Irish do you see on the streets begging for money on the streets? How many Irish people are capable of working yet choose not to? Guess what, they basically get free housing, food, health etc. Yet they are not an issue to you are they?

    Go to other EU countries. Spain or Italy for example. They have a much bigger immigration influx than Ireland has ever, and maybe will ever have. Housing crisis in Ireland is not due to immigration but the lack of construction which falls on local authorities and government. They knew how many people were coming it. They knew the businesses setting up in Ireland. Perhaps they did not do enough to make sure there was accommodation for everyone.

    Can you imagine if the United States back in the day where Irish fled the country to the US, that it was the Irish that were the cause of all their housing issues? Come on...

    Every country has their immigration issues, no doubt. Ireland as well. Removing immigrants form Ireland would bring Ireland back a few hundred years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭abozzz


    You're right about the gdp per capita number, it's 100k not 200k, just a typo.

    The adjusted gdp per capita is correct, coming out about 40k, which to nobodies surprise is equivalent to European average.

    Aka, defucked. We are not an extremely wealthy country, we are parading as a wealthy country.

    As to your insipid sentence of " ..what created the housing situation is not building enough" why dont you finish the sentence?

    "Building enough to accommodate mass migration"

    Here, consider a cartoon




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  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭abozzz


    The migration crises of today are not comparable to centuries ago. The growing anti migration pushback both here in europe and the united states is proof that theres significant difference.

    Im really tired of hearing the same nonsensical statement year in and year out of "we aren't building enough", when in reality it is "we aren't building enough to accommodate mass migration". Ergo, mass migration is the root problem.

    Framing the wrong answer to the wrong question has put us squarely in the position we are now; a worse housing crisis than the year before than the year before than the year before. Enough of the failed ideas.

    Again, a preemptive cartoon


    As to the second worst misdirection of all time, the "but the economy" line, if the economy needs mass migration to function, and if mass migration creates the capacity problems, and if the economy doesnt solve the capacity problems...Well then what effing use is the economy that people are running after? Once again, the wrong framed answer to the wrongly framed question, and that's why we are where we are. Self evidential.

    Youre right about the misaligned economy, and you're right about the absolute necessary adjustment of the economy back to reality. Mass migration has to end, and the redundant economy is going to have to shrink to some extent because of it.

    Living within means and living within reality.

    Or continually chase the fantasy of mass migration as a good thing in pursuit of an economy that solves nothing, all in a downward spiral evidenced over many years.

    Easy choice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,531 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...nope, just pure financialisation of our property markets, again, currently happening in most advanced economies around the world, but we re not ready to admit this to ourselves just yet, that mass immigration sh1te is just that, pure sh1te talk.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭abozzz


    You can't financialise such a commodity without sufficient over demand.

    It is not an elusive fact.

    The only less elusive reality would be a housing crisis due to thousands of rampant bulldozers running wild across the country for years.

    So low is my confidence in the average irish persons ability to grasp reality, there'd probably still be some people dismissing the bulldozers as they'd roll right pass them and through their own house. "They just aren't building enough homes to keep up with demolition"


    Unprecedented population increase from abroad, unfuckingprecedented capacity issues.

    Sweet Jesus christ, how difficult is this really?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭donaghs


    There were plenty of complaints in America about the massive influx of poor Catholic Irish post-Famine. It think its hard to compare the Famine Irish with modern welfare tourists though - or people just looking for a better life. (not all asylum seekers are welfare tourists of course). A better comparison would be people in 80s Ireland who overstayed visas in America - but their numbers were miniscule in terms of the overall American population.

    In relation to Spain and Italy, some simple facts.

    Ireland population 1990: 3.5 million, Ireland population now: 5.2 million - fairly massive increase for such a small country?

    Italy population 1990: 56.7 million. , Italy population now: 59 million - relatively speaking, very little change.

    Spain population 1990: 38.9 million, Spain population now: 47.4 million.

    Better comparisons would be countries with small populations like Ireland:

    Denmark: 1990: 5.1 million, now 5.9 million.

    croatia: 1990: 4.8 million, now: 3.9 million.

    Finland 1990: 5 million, now: 5.6 million.

    The percentage change is clearly greater in Ireland. driven by immigration since the birth rate had started going into decline. I've never heard anyone saying stop immigration. the common sense approach IMHO would to plan for these increases, and also have criteria about who can get residence - e.g. skills-based.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,531 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...in modern advanced financialised economies, such as ours, theres a relative free movement of capital, hence why we now experience a significant amount of involvement of sectors such as the shadow banking sectors, i.e. investment, pension funds etc etc, such entities have had an almost endless access to cheap credit over the last few years, particularly during the qe periods. this in turn has caused a significant increase in the price of assets such as property, so actually, prices can in fact increase in such markets, without having much actual demand, i.e. its a money(credit) fueled process, and then of course since our building capacity has effectively collapsed since the previous crash, all this is now adding up to a monumental failure, with virtually no solutions, again, very little to do with the foreigners, but policies that have been implemented by us, or on the behalf of us....



  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭abozzz


    Nobody is financialising my used socks.

    Now, if I go to an extreme effort to create interest and demand by having the pope bless my used socks, by rubbing them on Michael Jacksons corpse, by having Taylor swift talk about them at length, then you can bet youll have demand.

    Then people are interested in investing in them, riding the hype train, selling tickets to shows, selling tickets to ticket scalpers selling tickets, films starring Tom cruise, Chinese counterfeits, hedge funds, short sellers, the works.

    But until the demand is created, nobody gives a **** about my used socks.


    Artificial demand was introduced into this country via mass migration, housing has all but disappeared, and the whole world is watching and trying to get a slice of the action.

    Cause begets result.


    Nobody in their right mind can envisage a situation where the housing crisis is solved without eliminating mass migration. And for good reason.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,754 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Artificial demand, financialisation, and commoditisation of the Irish property market was introduced and built by Irish people, no one else.

    Blaming it all on 'foreigners' just exposes you as a xenophobe, so it's rather pointless debating the issue with you.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,993 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The adjusted GDP per capita is correct based on whose adjustments? Cause it's not the modified GNI per capita which is the actual "defucked" calculation.

    Immigration also adds significantly to our modified GNI per capita. You can not just shut the door to it without significant impacts.

    We are not building enough full stop. It's the end of the sentence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭abozzz


    Shite, dead end reasoning that would make a 5 year old blush, avoiding the elephant in the room like the plague, followed by insinuations of taboo to shut down questioning, and then declaring yourself above it all to even "debate" further.

    Sorry to tell you, but that weak sauce just isn't going to cut it anymore. As you'll see from the momentum gathering against mass migration across the world.

    Or maybe that's all just one long series of unrelated coincidences, am I right?

    Post edited by abozzz on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭abozzz


    I never mentioned gni.

    I have no doubt that mass migration adds to the real economy output. But rather than take that as an inherent positive, let's have a closer look at what that actually means under study in another country also facing mass migration.

    Funnily enough, i also see that irish productivity has dropped this year from cso. What are the odds that a country under very similar stresses also has similar outcomes?

    • "Australia’s increased reliance on migration meant that Australians in 2023 were approximately $7,848 poorer on a per capita basis.
    • Between 2000 and 2023, Australians were cumulatively $80,038 per person worse off. This is approximately one year’s worth of income per person lost over the past 23 years because of the country’s increased reliance on migration to achieve economic growth."


    But the Australian economy still "grew" despite those losses to the average Australian. Funny isn't it?

    Is that all too complicated? Probably.

    I mean there are people arguing that unprecedented population increase in Ireland is unrelated to unprecedented capacity crises!

    I don't know who is fooled any more by this ignorance. The resilience of propaganda is remarkable, what else can you put it down to?


    As to your statement that "we are not building enough. Full stop" it's farcical. An embarrassment. Enough for what? Enough for mass migration, yes. That's the end of the sentence.



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