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Biochar and natural farming

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭ginger22


    would spreading peat on mineral soil be a crazy idea.

    I find on drained peat soil grass grows away without fertilizer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    If you can get it.

    Peat is full of phosphorus. Potash then from the carbon itself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭ginger22


    well we have 30 acres of bog at the end of one farm and 40 acres at the end of another, should it be treated in some way or just spread as is



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    The environmentalist would say leave be.

    Years ago back in pre and post famine era they would put turf mould in any damp hole or scrape in a yard where livestock were and use it then as a fertiliser.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 563 ✭✭✭timfromtang


    Greetings all,

    I came across this historical piece on you tube, a useful watch I'd suggest for anyone who is making or wishes to make charcoal for biochar applications.

    All the best

    tim

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR9fHKO-vlY



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    @Say my name

    maybe not biochar, but are you using any amendments to boost grass growth??

    im sure we’d all consider something different at this stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Gypsum, gromax, foliar seaweed, fulvic acid, molasses, magnetic water - (now I've labelled myself a crank but I'm trying it for myself). Radiator with a lifting magnet and another the other side torn apart to be the opposite polarity. 6ton lifting force altogether. Was told by a mechanic of a magnetic setup that they saw on diesel cars that clamped on to the fuel line but with same polarity facing each other. Haven't a clue what I'm doing myself..

    And today got a mortgage to buy crushed sea shell.

    Basalt dust mixed in fym.

    Compost mixed into slurry.

    May start on the char again. Haven't spread any fert yet. But I'm back on grass volume on lads that have and are just on the point of being out full-time. But then I don't need to feed minerals like they do with silage as I'm putting the minerals on plant and soil and into the silage and grass that way.

    Put in a homemade water quartz pebble in pipe thingy at the well water and looks to have helped the stock this year. Fat anyways and zero calving issues.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Very interesting thread, you seem very knowledgeable in biological farming. It's an area I am trying myself and have found liquid seaweed and molasses has left ground alot drier (on peaty soil), and abundance of clover.

    What's your thoughts on adding turf peat ashes to slurry pit. Also regarding using basalt dust, have u seen much difference with it and would it substitute for lime ie. Is it a basic mineral.

    Thanks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Never be knowledgeable anyways.

    The turf itself would probably be a better fit for slurry. I was going to say it (ash) may actually give off more gas from the slurry being alkaline. But there's people praising adding cubicle lime to slurry and I'm seeing a difference adding humic/fulvic "acid" to the tank and it's alkaline. Try a bit anyway I can't see it harming.

    The basalt dust solved mineral deficiencies I had in stock at the time. In that I had to bolus the breeding stock to get in calf and prevent cases of withheld cleanings at calving. It's a different animal than lime. In Brazil they mix lime and basalt together in whatever ratio as a complete fertiliser. In Australia they mix basalt and compost and biochar together. If from a dry area I'd only advise mixing with compost or fym before use due to the sodium. The result from plain landspreading could show as going to drought faster than your neighbours.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Would love to try the Basalt quarry dust, as I know of a place in Meath with lovely red basalt rock and should be able get a good deal on it only problem is transporting it to the North West.

    Will try the ashes in the slurry tanks as you say it will do no harm. How did you get on with the Jadam JMS, making lactic acid bacteria here myself which I would like to multiply in barrel with molasses and spray along with seaweed to see whats it like.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    I got on well with the JMS. But you'd have to apply on damp ground and have it washed in. It'd be pointless spraying out in full sun on dry ground.

    You're ahead of me by making LAB. I haven't gotten there yet. But there would be natural LAB anyway in the JMS.

    I stuck on magnets just for the craic on the sprayer I have now on the outlet pipe. I can't use that now for biologicals as the magnets are supposed to kill bacteria. But I have another sprayer still.

    But the rule for biologicals is damp ground, overcast day with rain on the way or even during rain.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Interesting about the magnets what are they for?. LAB very easy made



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Magnets on sprayer. Kind of an electro culture aspect I suppose. Just trying it out anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 563 ✭✭✭timfromtang


    biochar to go anyone??

    I've 5 builders bags of charcoal fines that I sieved out of a recent large charcoal order, I'll use two myself but I'd say the others could go to a good home so to speak. Its unactivated charcoal dust and small particles. no reasonable offer refused

    pm me?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,432 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    @Say my name I've found some Phylgreen 200 in our store. What is the benefit of it and how should it be used on grassland?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    No experience of that seaweed commercial product.

    But if it's like another seaweed product I used. I'd go whatever rates they recommend per acre plus 4 litres molasses/acre and try and source a fulvic acid product to add to the mix.

    If the grass is burnt and under stress it won't do anything for it. But if it's green and growing it'll continue it green and growing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,432 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    What is it meant to do for grassland? Is it a quick booster for grass or what is its impact? Adverts mostly apply to fruits and cereals etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    It'll be a plant growth promoter and mineral supply to whatever eats the grass if what I posted is followed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,432 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    Seen a bit of talk recently about SuperSoil. Do you need a license for the sprayer to use it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    I don't think you need a license to spray it, but it would be best use a calibrated sprayer so you know your dosing the correct amount.

    I tried it on a few fields, got far better action and growth out of the fields that got slurry so it leads me too believe that the microbes need sugars/compost to multiply and increase nitrogen fixing. Any fields that didn't get slurry/dung were nowhere near as good but a definite improvement in fields that's got slurry when compared to the same fields with the same slurry application in previous years. All in all I think they are just another microbe/bacteria additive much like the slurry additives, @Say my name would be alot more knowledgeable on this



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,432 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    Thanks - so it is not really any different to applying Bacteriolit or Bactériosol into the slurry?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    That would be my take on it, but it is the same price as the digest it at 300 euro so I think they are all somewhat similar. One thing I will say is that the supersoil (according to website) seems to be more fungal dominant than bacteria dominant, and for nitrogen fixing fungi would be better as opposed to bacteria being better at breaking down slurry



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    There's no such thing as nitrogen fixing microbes. Bar it's stored away anaerobically in a plant.

    Every organism poops and dies and that's the nitrogen claim. But to have organisms you need to feed organisms. If there's no food, there's no organisms, there's no nitrogen fixing.

    What they'll feed on is carbon, carbohydrates, minerals, starch, sugars .....food.

    For anyone look up jadam microbial solution. And spray that on during cloudy days or just before rain. All you need is seawater or sea salt, potatoes, deciduous forest soil. And spray less than 2 bar. If you do it correctly you'll get some response in growth and add carbon to the soil along with added minerals from the marine element. This time of year now the ground is damp and still warm is perfect for it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,138 ✭✭✭endainoz


    Did you see the NOTS are doing a biodynamics course next month? Thought it would be right up your alley!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,138 ✭✭✭endainoz


    I'm going to try to make a JMS mixture to give as a soil addictive. @Say my name I decided to bring back this thread after seeing your post in the supersoil thread.

    I don't have a sprayer, so my idea is to make up a bit of a rig that can connect to a tap fitting on the back of an IBC tank. Would the ratio of 1 to 20 be ok for using it as a fertilizer or should it be diluted more?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    I made LAB and inoculated it with molasses this year and added it too slurry tanks, serious results crazy bubbles and absolutely zero smell. The fact that there was no smell tells me it had to have turned the ammonia (smell) in ammonium, nitrate or nitrite which can be used by the plant and hence increase nitrogen in the slurry.

    Cost about 20 quid for a full 200l barrell full, 20 litres of digest it is 300 euro. Will be doing alot more foliar nitrogen with seaweed and molasses this year on the farm as Saymyname had great results from it last year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,138 ✭✭✭endainoz


    Interesting, I fear this might be something I'll get hooked on. 🤣



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    You can apply it undiluted if you want. There's no hard and fast rules. I made up a mixture in a jfc round water trough. With a milk/water heater to get it to I think it was 18 degrees C. The warmer it is,it favours biology that likes warmer temperatures. The cooler favours cooler temperature biology. But you'll just be waiting longer for the cooler biology to bloom/foam up than the warmer biology. But you'll have to pick a temperature that your land would be most accustomed to. It can be made from 15 degree C to 21/22 celcius.

    It's recommended to make it in a circular container. That way the foam disc is visible and you know when it's ready to use. The above the water heater was turned up too high for a time above 20 c and a strong foam formed around the heater before I turned it down. That was from warm water favoured biology. The disc of foam never gets to the edge of the circular container.

    The above is at the perfect stage for applying. I think it was 24 hours or 36 hours from when I made it up.

    When you spray it on it should be done in cloudy weather ahead of rainfall. It's anaerobic biology but there's dual purpose both anaerobic and aerobic biology involved too - lactic acid bacteria and fungi. The purpose of rain is to wash it into the anaerobic layers of the soil. It then works on the anaerobic soil and boosts carbon content and gradually through so makes it aerobic.

    If you are dribbling it on brilliant. But if applying with a sprayer keep the pressure below 2 bar. High pressure kills the biology.

    It's not a wonder thing. But anyone applying long term will say it works. If your soil is in reasonable fertility and you've done everything correct you should see some benefit from an application. But it's not a bag of fertiliser. But fertiliser can't do what the biology can do.

    It is a drain on time. So everything should be done to make it as handy as possible. The largest possible container to make, largest possible sprayer you can go to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,138 ✭✭✭endainoz


    What would ye recommend as an additive for slurry, would it need much time in the tank to work into fhr liquid? Sorry, I know this is a broad question, but would like to add something into the tank each year going forward.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Go back a few posts and look to what @Jonnyc135 is doing. You won't get much cheaper than that.

    You can also add Humic acid but it costs money. But there is a benefit. Don't add JMS unless you want to thicken up your tank. I did that and added some molasses and the slurry rose through the slats. Must have been a yeast effect. The cows weren't overly fond of where the slurry was spread but it did add body to the ground like it was dung spread.

    Biochar if you want. It's never any harm. Seaweed water if you want too. If you're near the sea and have access to seaweed. Put it in ibc's with some molasses let it rot a bit. Open the tap in the bottom. Let the water in the tank. Fill up the ibc again with water and some molasses and use again and again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    You can make the LAB yourself there tons of YouTube tutorials, the trick is to inoculate it in a 200 l barrel with about 20l of molasses at 30 degrees for about 3-4 days, a simple aquarium heater out of a pet store would work perfect you would want 500w one or 2 300w ones really. Even better if you had an old immersion heater or milk heater for suck calves.

    There are cheap slurry additives like slurry care etc for 60 quid, if you weren't bothered making the lab yourself you could buy them and inoculate them in the barrel like above.

    The key I think is the inoculation, it basically multiplies the bacteria by an order of magnitude and will get far better bang for your buck and works far better in the slurry. The molasses in the barrel turns acidic and will smelly like alcohol or ethanol when fermented after a few days. It will also turn an real orange colour as opposed to the brown watery molasses. When you smell this and it orange its ready to go. Basically the bacteria are breaking down and feeding on the sugar in the molasses which turns it acidic and into alcohol much like a poitin still or distillery. The more sugar or carbohydrates the more the bacteria will multiply.

    That's roughly my take on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,138 ✭✭✭endainoz


    Excellent info folks! I've seen a few videos on LAB alright, Chris Trump seems to be a pioneer of it in this part of the world. One last question: assuming I get innoculated LAB into my tanks, how long would it need to be in the tank before spreading? I've seen instructions for slurry additives and they're supposed to be in the tank for 90 days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Limestone Cowboy


    Finding all this very interesting and equally over my head at the same time. What's you're thoughts on the sobac products @Say my name or has anybody else on here tried them out.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Since I'm tagged..

    I know absolutely nothing about them. I'm half tempted to try though since a farmer using them got an award and gave a good show of what they were doing to his land.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    I put it in as the cattle went in the end of October, you need to added it to the liquid part of the slurry at the bottom really, I don't think it works the best just being poured on the crust.

    After we emptied our tanks in January, the last few liquid inches left that couldn't be sucked - I made another batch and poured it all over the slats on to this liquid layer. Can see it going white again where the fresh slurry being added under slats. Also it seems to work a lot better under the slats where the cattle are as opposed to the outside agitation points - leads me to believe the bacteria thrives off where new dung slurry being added every day.



  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ak84


    According to Nicole Masters, one should rip and drip. Subsoiling with a molasses and humic acid mix to drip into rips.

    I think it's a carbon source for the awakening microbes.

    I was wondering would a biochar and molasses and em1 mixture do the same?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,138 ✭✭✭endainoz


    Edit* question answered above already.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Interesting study over 4 years published. This looks like excellent contributing research by a guy named Bernard Carey:




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,138 ✭✭✭endainoz


    The LAB experiment has begun!


    Two litres of rice washed water made, the ratio of milk to rice washed water seems to vary between 1 to 5 and 1 to 10. What would those in the know recommend?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,138 ✭✭✭endainoz


    After one day mixed with milk, removed the curds a few days later and mixed with molasses. Have another batch that was a little bit behind so will add that to it all today.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    That glass container with the tap on the bottom. Does that have a name for that implement or what is it commercially sold as?

    It's spot on for that job.

    Tom Stack is all on the Korean natural farming and LAB is the basis of most of it.

    What's your plan for this or is it a starting point to get your eye in?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,103 ✭✭✭alps


    How fast was the reaction with the milk?

    Brave pulling that experiment on the carpet🤭



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,138 ✭✭✭endainoz


    The carpet was perfectly fine, but yes might be an idea to have something underneath it for the future! The reaction took 4 days for one jar and 6 days for the other.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,138 ✭✭✭endainoz


    I'm not sure if the exact name, they're normally used for b&BS for juices and such. The idea I have is to eventually put it in the slurry tank, I probably only have a fraction of what I need to it's also a bit of a proof on concept at this stage.

    This is the product as it is now. The LAB serum was bulked up with 6 litres of molasses and approx 20 litres of water. I'm not certain how long I'll have to keep it in the blue barrel before it can go into the tank, any ideas?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    It's getting a bit technical now and I've no real experience of LAB bar it is in the Jadam solution I made. I know LAB lives in both aerobic and anaerobic conditions. In the jadam there was a disc of foam on top of the solution. When this started to disappear it meant the bacteria was starting to die and what use is dead bacteria bar fertiliser. May transfer to what you're doing there in the container.

    I wouldn't use all of it in your slurry. Keep some and add it to your lawn or place in a field and see if there's a difference. It'll possibly be swamped in the slurry, you should see benefit, but you definitely should if you keep back a bit and use it diluted or straight on your test plot. Otherwise you may think after what's the point.

    People use LAB for brewing solutions with everything imaginable including urea if one wanted. They use air lock valves on top of the brewing containers.

    Good luck anyway. You're ahead of us all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Scientific article of a recorded Rapeseed yield from application of biochar and manure and biochar with no manure but npk bag fert.

    Which did better? And which application of 0 biochar to 45t biochar/ha did better?

    And how many times was the land ploughed and the sprayer used?

    Usually these articles are not accessible to the general public. But somehow this is.

    Manure application followed by biochar application increases plant production regardless of soil dehydrogenase activity - Dvořáčková - 2023 - Soil Use and Management - Wiley Online Library



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭148multi




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,782 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    I know but sure it is trial work. Point made though biochar is a good addition with manure but there comes a point when too much is too much.

    That said. I've grown myself in 100% char when it's been filled with nutrients. The 45t was obviously the hungry mark over the manure and it started pulling from the soil and then plant.



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