41 new ICR centre cars

Political Wall Map · 22-11-2019 2:54pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Any stats to back up power packs isolation occurrences?

Im not against the change. Im sure it will deliver various benefits but on paper must benefits are overstated to what is actually achieved.

Just listen to them going by you kid.... that's all the stats you need. :cool:

Jamie2k9 · 22-11-2019 2:54pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Replacement would need to be stage V anyway so the cost has to be paid, the only extra cost is the hybrid stuff

So 29s will get the same or will there be an exemption?

Political Wall Map · 22-11-2019 2:56pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So 29s will get the same or will there be an exemption?

No exemption needed if not planned to be changed. If IE plan on changing the powerpacks then maybe IIIB under derogation or else Stage V.

Jamie2k9 · 22-11-2019 3:01pm

Political Wall Map wrote: »

No exemption needed if not planned to be changed. If IE plan on changing the powerpacks then maybe IIIB under derogation or else Stage V.

So fuel saving policies selectively applied.

Political Wall Map · 22-11-2019 3:07pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So fuel saving policies selectively applied.

Yep. Exactly. Larger fleet. More miles. More journeys. So they chose the option that makes the most sense based on funding constraints.....

Political Wall Map · 22-11-2019 3:09pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So fuel saving policies selectively applied.

I think that because the new intermediate cars are NEW, they must have Stage V powerpacks to comply with emissions legislation.

Political Wall Map · 22-11-2019 3:22pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So fuel saving policies selectively applied.

Also, if for example the Stage V or hybrid powerpacks do not fit into existing space of the underside, derogation can be sought to allow to fit a IIIB powerpack if that was to fit. Dont forget that Stage V and hybrid comes with added exhaust, battery space, and whatever else they have.

So sometimes not selectively but the situation faced can determine the outcome.

Its happened on several re-power projects abroad.

goingnowhere · 22-11-2019 3:59pm

The new engine is a direct slot in replacement, it all comes on a raft with all the bits and pieces, lift in lift out

The only design issue is where to put the battery unit, easy on the B cars at there a chunk of space at the end which doesn't have a toilet

Political Wall Map · 22-11-2019 4:17pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

The new engine is a direct slot in replacement, it all comes on a raft with all the bits and pieces, lift in lift out

The only design issue is where to put the battery unit, easy on the B cars at there a chunk of space at the end which doesn't have a toilet

Its not the actual powerpack. (I have my doubts that it will be as easy as you say).... it would be the location of the transformer probably 500kg, moving of existing fuel and air pipes to accommodate the new envelope of the powerpack, the hybrid batteries at 350 kg per battery will be larger, heavier than the existing...... im sure there are more things than we would think of.....

And lets not forget, the objective would be fit to the entire 22000 fleet.... so there will be a lot of work in this.

Political Wall Map · 22-11-2019 4:18pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

The new engine is a direct slot in replacement, it all comes on a raft with all the bits and pieces, lift in lift out

The only design issue is where to put the battery unit, easy on the B cars at there a chunk of space at the end which doesn't have a toilet

Is the transformer in the new powerpack?

goingnowhere · 22-11-2019 9:03pm

There is no transformer

The PR spiel is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ji95_pTZnc

Political Wall Map · 22-11-2019 9:37pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

There is no transformer

The PR spiel is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ji95_pTZnc

For the hybrids?

goingnowhere · 22-11-2019 9:55pm

Thats the hybrid spiel, its real. Everything bar the battery is within the existing engine raft

And i'm hiding behind Jim Meade in the video, the demo engine also made an appearance at the ploughing festival. Irish Rail is potentially the biggest single customer looking at 275 engines + spares.

The engine with the near ZF gearbox is already out and about in set 22007

L1011 · 22-11-2019 10:14pm

Political Wall Map wrote: »

Its not the actual powerpack. (I have my doubts that it will be as easy as you say).... it would be the location of the transformer probably 500kg, moving of existing fuel and air pipes to accommodate the new envelope of the powerpack, the hybrid batteries at 350 kg per battery will be larger, heavier than the existing...... im sure there are more things than we would think of.....

And lets not forget, the objective would be fit to the entire 22000 fleet.... so there will be a lot of work in this.

What transformer? There is no reason you would need anything of that scale in this type of product.

Political Wall Map · 22-11-2019 10:42pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Thats the hybrid spiel, its real. Everything bar the battery is within the existing engine raft

And i'm hiding behind Jim Meade in the video, the demo engine also made an appearance at the ploughing festival. Irish Rail is potentially the biggest single customer looking at 275 engines + spares.

The engine with the near ZF gearbox is already out and about in set 22007

There is a transformer on the powerpack? Or no transformer at all? I am nearly 100% sure the lads said about the transformer at the ploughing champs. Thats how i knew about it

goingnowhere · 22-11-2019 11:08pm

No transformer is needed for the hybrid system.

There is generator in the existing raft which pushes out 380vAC 3 phase, 110vDC and 24vDC for which a transformer probably needed

Political Wall Map · 23-11-2019 8:59am

goingnowhere wrote: »

No transformer is needed for the hybrid system.

There is generator in the existing raft which pushes out 380vAC 3 phase, 110vDC and 24vDC for which a transformer probably needed

No there is no hydraulic Generator new powerpack. The power comes from the "EMachine." I screenshot the transformer, and circled in yellow for reference. And I think that the powerpack is already so cramped, it will not fit so space somewhere else will be needed. Hopefully the screenshot makes sense

Del.Monte · 23-11-2019 9:06am

Is there a need for a new sub-forum within Train & Rail Systems as all this very detailed technical stuff leaves me cold. Anybody else?

highdef · 23-11-2019 10:15am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Is there a need for a new sub-forum within Train & Rail Systems as all this very detailed technical stuff leaves me cold. Anybody else?

Not at all. Much better to have everything in the one place. Personal preferences of different aspects of the subject are to expected so when you come across something you've no interest in, read ahead until you find the next bit that fits your personal preferences.

Geuze · 23-11-2019 10:05pm

Can I clarify?

The new 41 ICR cars will have these new MTU hybrid diesel engine + electric motor+battery, ok?

AND

IE are going to remove all the existing engines from all existing ICR cars, and replace them with new MTU hybrids?

Political Wall Map · 24-11-2019 2:49pm

Geuze wrote: »

Can I clarify?

The new 41 ICR cars will have these new MTU hybrid diesel engine + electric motor+battery, ok?

AND

IE are going to remove all the existing engines from all existing ICR cars, and replace them with new MTU hybrids?

From what I can make out, wont be hybrid. But Stage V. They can be changed to Hybrid with a few changes in a few years.

If the trials were a success that would be next logical step....

goingnowhere · 24-11-2019 7:28pm

Certainly be Stage V and the ZF gearbox

dowlingm · 24-11-2019 10:23pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Is there a need for a new sub-forum within Train & Rail Systems as all this very detailed technical stuff leaves me cold. Anybody else?

certainly not until fare disputes has their own forum.

Geuze · 09-01-2024 5:15pm

Have all 41 been delivered?

Are all 41 in service?

Very expensive, 150m for 41 coaches.

LXFlyer · 09-01-2024 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593020#Comment_121593020

You really do have some strange ideas about how much rail infrastructure or rolling stock should cost. They're never cheap, but you have to look at how long benefits will be derived from them.

None are in service yet - they are awaiting the safety approval from the CRR.

Once that is forthcoming, I would expect that it will be late summer or even early autumn I would imagine before they will all be in service.

Geuze · 09-01-2024 7:43pm

"This represents an investment of €150 million, and the delivery of the carriages began in September 2022."

Delivery began 15 months ago, and none are in service yet.

This safety approval process seems to take a long time?

I would have thought a week or so, but obviously I'm wrong.

Geuze · 09-01-2024 7:50pm

Finland - 20 Stadler FLIRT EMU trains (not single coaches) = 80 vehicles for 250m

So 12.5m per set, or 3.125 per car, including spare parts

We are paying 3.66m per coach, 150m/41, so I suppose we are not too far out.

end of the road · 09-01-2024 8:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593780#Comment_121593780

the big thing that takes up the time is the running trials i guess.

a certain amount of milage has to be done as part of those trials to make sure the cars are working properly and iron out any faults if there are any.

howiya · 19-01-2024 9:48am

So the 41 new cars they reference in every budget speech are one set of 41 cars that have been planned since 2016 when this thread started? Wow.

L1011 · 19-01-2024 9:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121637845#Comment_121637845

Yes. I think they may have double referenced the DART orders too (there have been two, but more than two references to them as new)

Losty Dublin · 19-01-2024 6:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593813#Comment_121593813

FLIRT are suburban electric units, which are somewhat cheaper than a diesel mainline given less mechanical systems internally. Nonetheless, they look to be a superb unit and come with a good track record.

Jamie2k9 · 23-01-2024 10:14pm

Is there a date for starting to entre service. Worth remembering the first 3 coaches arrived in Sep 2022 and at the time were due to enter service early 2023. I'm sure its a complex process but its now almost 15 months...

LXFlyer · 23-01-2024 10:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662562#Comment_121662562

As above - dependent on CRR approval.

Jamie2k9 · 23-01-2024 10:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662570#Comment_121662570

I don't think the CRR are fully responsible for the long delay between arrival and EIN or IE underestimated the project.

I am sure someone around here has some reliable estimate on dates.

LXFlyer · 23-01-2024 10:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662623#Comment_121662623

You asked when they are likely to enter service.

My understanding is that the only thing holding that up now is the final sign off from CRR.

Once that comes it shouldn’t be too long after when the first one enters service.

goingnowhere · 28-01-2024 3:12pm

There was certainly talk of issues with the documentation coming from Korea and that doesn't help with the CRR.

It might the same train, but its its not. The rules have changed since and the equipment onboard is different

External cameras are different?, the CCTV gear is different, the seat reservation kit is different, the interior layout is different, smoke sensors in different places, the position of the above floor equipment is different, the engine raft is different, the engine mount is different, safety assessment of the new multipurpose space etc etc.

Had the trains been ordered back in 2016 when all this started the delta between the original and the 41 would have been less

Jamie2k9 · 28-01-2024 10:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662821#Comment_121662821

I asked for a timeline.

Anyway I see Jim Meade is expecting CRR approval middle of Feb.

Geuze · 29-01-2024 2:17am

If a new bus model is delivered into Ireland, is it subject to 15 months of tests and certification?

LXFlyer · 29-01-2024 6:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121687251#Comment_121687251

Well at the time of writing my post, that was a “how long is a piece of string” question!

goingnowhere · 29-01-2024 8:52pm

Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_701 took 3 years 9 months from first unit arriving to entering revenue service.

TranslatorPS · 30-01-2024 10:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121687942#Comment_121687942

Ireland can buy buses right off the market (union requirements notwithstanding) and they're usually somehow certified, or otherwise require some sort of new certification. The railway is different as it runs essentially custom-tailored stock due to the 1600 mm gauge.

Also one doesn't really compare to the other, the safety levels required of the two are hardly comparable.

dowlingm · 05-02-2024 2:56am

At the same time, I think people were expecting more commonality - Rotem had all the designs and the experience of the original 22s. Clearly they couldn’t replicate it exactly and Irish Rail presumably had improvement requests of their own, but comparing it to a new design, such as the new DARTs will be, is surely inapposite.

L1011 · 05-02-2024 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121722865#Comment_121722865

Someone mentioned the staggering volume of changes that had occurred from the original design somewhere on this thread.

They've had a mild refit (new seat covers, carpets, side walls, USB power, lighting I think?) but there's also been mechanical changes.

I also presume the new units have the new gearboxes that are in trial on another unit but that's just a guess.

goingnowhere · 05-02-2024 2:28pm

The 41 have the stage 5 engine + ZF gearbox and the electric machine for the hybrid mode which is currently unused.

The parts simply are not available or no longer compliant so you can't build the same. The structure as in the bodyshell, bogies etc is the same. Pretty sure the door mechanisms are the same, same for brakes. Seats are the same, but come with the Muirhead leather trim for factory (Rotem now offer this to other customers...) The wiring loom is different, PIS, reservation displays, CCTV are different

goingnowhere · 05-02-2024 8:02pm

Just a correction to that the anti-climbers on the car body ends are structurally different on the new 41. It doesn't look different but it is

Poxyshamrock · 16-02-2024 8:52am

https://x.com/IrishRail/status/1758412508207935877?s=20

first new carriages entered service this morning.

goingnowhere · 16-02-2024 9:41am

1 carriage on trial operations, depending on how you read the schedule

Should have entered servce in Q2 2019, multiple revisions became Q4 2023 and then today.

It captures everything wrong with how we treat public transport investment, lots of talk, little actual action and that action comes too late.

LXFlyer · 16-02-2024 10:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774479#Comment_121774479

I think that your first line is a bit off.

I believe that you’ll start seeing them entering service steadily from now on.

Your last line is bang on. The NTA prevaricated for so long about ordering them - they should have been ordered ages before they were and we ought now to be ordering the next tranche of rolling stock for Intercity/regional rail.

goingnowhere · 16-02-2024 10:19am

CRR require a trial period of operations before issuing the final acceptance

There are 4 configurations to be certified as there are 4, 5 and two 6 car configs

Also need acceptance to be obtained from the DFI in NI

LXFlyer · 16-02-2024 10:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774651#Comment_121774651

There won’t be any 5 car sets going forward?

Also, aren’t the six-car premier sets being reformed with the original cars that were removed being re-inserted? Surely that’s a straightforward exercise?

I would have thought you’re talking about two “new” configurations as such, 4-car and 6-car sets with the new coaches inserted.

41 new ICR centre cars

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