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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Explain the alibi

    And why is the Garda investigation focused solely on bailey have they got it all wrong



  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Ms Robini


    To you it’s less ridiculous! But to most people, Ian Bailey’s account of why he changed his story of his whereabouts on the night of Sophie’s murder and how he got the marks to his hands and forehead completely lacks credibility.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,232 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    You don't know what "most people" think. Multiiple DPPs found the account of the scratches to be credible and many posters here agree with. Of course they could be wrong. But it strongly suggests the account is not completely lacking in credibility.

    As to his alibi. It is even possible Bailey is NOT the killer, but had a blackout and made up some of the details of his account that night. He had alcohol blackouts before, but seems to be associated with heavy drinking of whiskey. We don't have certain information as to how much or what he was drinking that night, but there are no reports in the pub of him being that drunk. He took a pint home with him. But we can't rule out a bottle of whiskey at home he had a nightcap from.

    So it is possible Bailey either forgot about some of his movements, or deliberately invented a fake alibi because he was worried he could be the killer.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    They both said he was in bed then Jules admitted he left the bed, then Ian admitted he left the bed to write an article

    There was 3 different explanations for the scratches , a stick , christmas trees and turkeys

    He confessed to the murder

    Put that all together and you have a likely killer



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,232 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    There aren't three different explanations for the scratches. There were scratches in different places and he tried to relate them after the fact to what he had done. He cut down a tree - the "stick" seems to be in reference to a piece of the tree. It does not make sense in relation to anything else. And he thinks he may have been nicked by turkey. Multiple witnesses are in record as noticing some marks on Bailey before the murder. If he got the scratches at the scene, how was no trace found of him anywhere? And the briars were checked. And Sophie's nails were checked. It is even possible Bailey is the killer, but was scratched the day before.

    "He confessed to the murder". Some context here - he made no formal admission as a confession. You can tell by the reaction of the people he made these so called confessions to, they did not credit them as such. Continuing to take lifts from him, continuing to socialise with him in the pub. We have seen miscarriages of justice where police acquire false confessions. These aren't even on that level.

    His alibi is all over the shop, and I have given explanations as to why that might be the case with drink involved. If it was a common thing for Bailey to leave the bed to get up early to finish articles, weeks later under questioning it may not have occurred to someone to mention it, because the studio was still seen as part of the property.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Blackouts can happen anyone who consumes a lot of alcohol quickly, memory cannot form during a phase of very fast drinking, that might last an hour or two when there’s a complete absence of recall , and vague recall as blood alcohol level diminishes. Happens alcoholics frequently simply because they consume alcohol fast way more regularly than others.

    It is possible that if he had done the killing that he would have no direct recollection, but he would surely have left at least some traces of blood around Jules’ cottage, no matter how careful he tried to be. And drunk people/alcoholics tend to be generally careless and messy as Jukes described him to be. I know there was a bonfire of items some time around then, but to not leave at least some noticeable bits of blood would be unlikely in the scenario.

    May e there was some blood, but Ian said it was from the turkeys or scratches he got from the birds/tree cutting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,232 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Plus in that scenario, where he had taken on a load of whiskey... it would have hit him hard about the time he is supposed to be walking over to Sophie's which takes something like 45-60 minutes. More likely he would be in a ditch than capable of murder.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)





  • People lose muscular strength when badly affected by alcohol alone, without a stimulant like cocaine. Years back I’ve been in the company of an angry drunk person, who suffered a blackout and had but the most vague recollection of circumstance and none of an attempted manoeuvre, so to speak, but had lost so much muscle strength and coordination that they could barely stand up let alone actively cause harm to others.

    It might be more the action of someone with less drink on them, or a stimulant drug like cocaine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,717 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Could it account for the lapse of memory on the night?

    “I was at home in bed all night”

    Then;

    “Yes I remember now, I got up to do some work….”

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,232 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I don't know how reliable all of it this is given how much rumour surrounds this case, but this guy on reddit seems to have read everything about the case, and has done up a list of points as to why "Bailey didn't do it":

    After Bailey was released from custody, he could not go home and was driven to his friend Russell Barrett's house. While there he told Barrett he had no memory of the murder but if the Gardai said he did it, and had been seen by witnesses then maybe he had committed the murder but blacked out due to drink. Essentially Bailey was now questioning his own reality. He asked to fetch Irma Tullock, Barrett's sometime girlfriend, a counsellor and hypnotist. Bailey trusted Tullock, because she had helped him after he assaulted Jules Thomas in May 1996. He wanted Tullock to hypnotise him to see if what the Gardai said was possible, because he had no memory of it Tullock was interviewed by Gardai two weeks later. She wrote in her statement that Bailey talked in circles and appeared to have been subjected to "inappropriate interrogation techniques".

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MurderAtTheCottage/comments/xf1kc4/bailey_didnt_do_it/

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • The person I knew who had the blackout during a bout of anger (having been drinking and totally misinterpreted what I had said and gone into a jealous rage) had very poor recollection later. Before drinking had commenced, this person was in my car, and that was their last recollection when I much later asked them how much had they recalled. Hadn’t remembered from the moment of starting drinking as it had been consumed so rapidly. Knew something had happened by my refusal to engage for a while.

    My point is that several hours of memory can be completely and utterly obliterated, in fact it’s because the memory can’t form in the first place. But again that very drunk the person isn’t quite capable of carrying out a coordinated manoeuvre. If Bailey were that very drunk he’d have been very clumsy in the committal of the killing, would likely have ended up down on the ground beside her or when arriving home not composed enough to hide evidence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,244 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Hypnotists?

    More west Cork, blow-in, hippy bulls**t.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,232 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..



    Am about 10 minutes into this

    Not sure who posted it think it was the other thread

    Absolutely fascinating journalists have an ear for a story





  • another thing regarding failure to form memory with rapidly rising blood alcohol, Jules could have been keeping up with that kind to drinking on the night to her own equivalent extent, and could have similar lack of recall.

    When there’s total lack of recall like that people tend to subconsciously invent stuff to fill the void, that’s how you could get different accounts. Quite apart from the disintegration of any memories over time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    The Nicola tallant interview is a revelation whoever posted it

    You've got journalists who don't believe a word of what he's saying

    The alibi the scratches and the confessions

    Problem is it's all circumstantial



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    "The studio was still seen as part of the property".

    How did you figure this out?

    The studio is 200 yards away from the main house.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,232 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It was treated like an annex of the main house. Bailey using it as his office. It wasn't like he was going to an office in town and wouldn't be thought of as 'going out'. He was still at home.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,754 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    The DPP can explain it much better than I can...

    Sophie was killed on 23 December 1996.

    Bailey's first questionnaire was completed eight days later.

    It is a difficult exercise for any person to recall with precision the timing and location of ordinary matters even after a very short time.

    The same observation applies to the questionnaire completed on 14 January 1997, some three weeks after the murder.

    The same observation applies to the interviews conducted while Bailey was in detention on 10 February 1997, some seven weeks after the murder.

    The fact that Bailey and Jules Thomas have made errors in their recollection does not necessarily mean they are deliberately lying. Errors made by other persons are regarded as simple mistakes in terms of recollection.

    As for your question about the gardai focusing on one suspect, just ask yourself if the abuse inflicted on Joanne Hayes by such "highly respected" gardai such as Detective O'Carroll (scumbag!) could happen to someone else?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    No he wasn't still at home, if he was in the studio he was in a completely separate house 200 yards away.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,717 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    What difference does it make, whether he was in the kitchen working or in the studio? He was out of the bedroom.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    There's a big difference between failing to remember you popped into another room of a warm house and failing to remember you had to walk 400 yards in the cold darkness of a December night in rural west Cork.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,232 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It's not an independent house i.e. it wasn't treated as an independent house, it wasn't an independent household of Baileys. It was treated like an annex of the main property and part of 'home'.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,717 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The point was he had left the bedroom and nobody could support his alibi after that, whether he was downstairs , at the studio or trekking over the roads to kill someone. (It's less thab 250 yds btw, not that it matters)



  • Registered Users Posts: 40 irishspiderplant


    I find this really interesting.

    Melita certainly had a motive. Of course people from violent backgrounds don't always go on to be violent themselves, but there's no limit to how a seven-year-old's brain chemistry could be affected by their father killing their mother.

    I'm reluctant to put much stock in Marie Farrell's testimony at this point but it's interesting how closely her description of the original man matches Melita's brother.

    There's also the report of the Frenchman who came into a Galway travel agent in Galway the very same day that Sophie's body was found.

    'Mr Sweeney said the man came into his travel agent business at 2.30pm on December 23, 1996 -- four-and-a-half hours after Sophie's bludgeoned body was discovered outside her holiday home, near Schull, Co Cork.

    The man was looking for a hotel near Dublin Airport and also for the numbers of bed and breakfasts in west Cork, as he had left one without paying.'

    and from another source:

    'Yesterday, in a Sunday newspaper, Mr Sweeney, 62, said he told gardaí a man fitting Ms Farrell's original description of the suspect had booked flights from Dublin to France the day after Ms du Plantier's murder. Ms Farrell originally described the suspect as sallow and of medium height, at odds with Mr Bailey's stature.'

    I believe he later identified the man as Sophie's former lover Bruno Carbonnet. But he might have been mistaken.

    VERY strange to have left a B&B in west Cork without paying.

    There's also the case of the bottle of wine available from French duty-free found in a nearby ditch.

    There's the speeding Ford Fiesta seen around 8:00 a.m. that morning.

    Even if the murder occurred at night, if this mystery person had been staying in a B&B somewhere he would be getting out of there immediately. Probably freaked out and covered in blood. So maybe he went back to his accommodation and then sped off, getting rid of the wine in the process?

    Apparently Sophie had used Maurice Sweeney's travel agency before. Several times, when she stayed with friends in Galway, before she bought the house in West Cork. Big coincidence.

    Also, this! (which would probably rule out the Frenchman in Galway)

    'Gardai are looking at a number of possible new suspects over the murder of Sophie Toscan du Plantier.

    One is a French speaking individual who was spotted in a Kerry pub the night after her murder with marks and scratches on his face.

    A suspicious barman at the time in Cahirciveen reported him to the local Gardai and he was questioned before being eventually let go.

    It later emerged that this person was the spitting image of an individual who was spotted by shopkeeper Marie Farrell following Sophie, 38, around Schull village, west Cork, in the afternoon before she was killed on the night of December 23, 1996.

    The man speaks fluent French but is from another European country. He also used a rented car which had false number plates.'

    I mean if they questioned him they questioned him but the Gardai haven't exactly proved themselves up to procedural standards in this case.

    There's also the sighting of Sophie in the petrol station in Skibbereen with a mystery man.

    There's also the question raised by many posters by now: Why did Sophie come to west Cork in the dead of winter?

    Let's not forget that the last person she spoke to on the phone was her husband Daniel.

    S



  • Registered Users Posts: 40 irishspiderplant


    Okay, there's a reddit poster called PhilMathers and he goes into the travel agent story in detail:

    'The next loose end is the travel agent. This man knew Sophie from previous occasions, when she was looking for a house in Ireland. He called the Gardai in January 1997 to say a dishevelled French man had been in the travel agency asking for phone numbers for West Cork Hotels, saying he had left without paying. In 2005 he was reinterviewed and gave a more detailed description:

    "This man was 5'8" in height, he was small as some people go. He medium build, he was sallow more white than sallow in complexion. He had wavy hair, artie type, his hair came below the collar of his coat. His hair was mousey, darkish in colour. He had prominent jaw bones sharpish nose, bushy eyebrows,

    continental type. His hair was straight enough but there was a wave in it, like what you would see in the picture of the sacred heart. He had a scarf, an ordinary woollen scarf I think it was brownie / yellowish. The coat he wore was a mustard type coloured coat, I thought it was herring bone but it could have been tweed. The coat was a long coat down to the shin. He had it closed at the time. I didn't see his footwear. When he came into the office he was taking to an acquaintance of mine who was in the shop, who was ... of Ballyausty or Cosmona Loughrea. I recall .. asking him where he was from. He said Barcelona Catalan and they started talking about different things, they talked about art amongst other things, which lead me to believe he was an artist. This man then approached me and said he wanted a place to stay near Dublin Airport that was reasonable. I offered him the address of the Skyline in Drumcondra Road Dublin, which now is a Mc Niff hotel. Then he asked for phone numbers of Hotels in West Cork, I gave him Skibbereen, Actons in Kinsale and I think I gave him another one in Kinsale, He seemed to know Actons in Kinsale. He then left the office."

    His daughter was also in the office and gave a description in 2005:

    "I remember that my father was in the office at the time as well as a

    Mediterranean looking man. I didn't delay going through the office but I took notice of the strange man because he was foreign looking. I would describe the man as being in his 40's or 50's in age; average height - about 5 ft 6ins. He had dark brown hair which was thick and curly. I thought he had a moustache as well but I am not sure. His complexion was dark and sallow. I believe he was wearing a lot of brown clothing. He had a brownish coat that went just to above his knee. I hadn't seen this man before or since. I can't recall if there was anyone else in the office at the time."

    The travel agent was quite critical of the Gardai that they didn't follow this up at the time. But the Gardai insisted that all this detail was not given to the in 1997. So this description is recalled 8 years after the events. Loughrea is a long way from West Cork, about 5 hours drive. The travel agent also gave specific details about the friends that Sophie was supposed to have visited nearby in Galway. These people were also interviewed but they said they had never met Sophie, though they were acquainted with Daniel. Therefore the accuracy of his recollection has to be questioned.'



  • Registered Users Posts: 503 ✭✭✭Vex Willems


    Growing up, we had an office across the road from the house, the office had internet, the house didn't. If I wanted to use the internet I'd go to the office. If someone were to ask me were I was, I say I was at home. On reflection I may say, oh that night I was in the office, but would have still considered myself to be at home.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Doesn't explain it satisfactorily merely excuses it



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Friends that never met Sophie? He gave details of these 'friends' what can explain that? A mixup or something else certainly worth another look.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40 irishspiderplant


    Reddit user PhilMathers goes into a lot of detail about much of what has been discussed here. For some reason I can't link his account but you can search for it. Very informative posts and casts doubt on a lot of theories inc. Ian Bailey, the Bantry guard, the Frenchman seen in the travel agent's in Galway.

    He even has more information on things like Alfie Lyon's injury (it was not from a dog bite it was from an old skating accident that played up sometimes) and the dogs barking (there were only two dogs barking that night although one barked for hours and hours to the extent where one of the owners went to check on the cattle) as well as the bottle of wine (it hasn't ever been confirmed that it was only available in France.)

    The speeding car in the morning wasn't reported until months after the fact apparently.

    I found this interesting:

    'There is loads known about them. There is a feature length documentary about Tomi Ungerer, his life and works. "Far out Isn't Far Enough: The Tomi Ungerer Story", you can watch it online, though it is gone from Youtube it is on a few pay-streaming platforms. He was a very well known artist. He didn't live full time in West Cork, he spent most of his time in Strasbourg where he had a job with the EU as a cultural ambassador of some sort. Bis wife Yvonne stayed at home looking after the farm. He started writing and illustrating childrens books but got blacklisted in the 1960s when he produced a book of erotic drawings. Sophie may have been trying to make contact with him because of his fame as an artist. She met him briefly in April when her car got a puncture outside his farm (Daniel said this was a ruse, because Yvonne was a jealous woman, but we only have Daniel's word on this). This wasn't successful as there was some family row going on. Yvonne said Tomi was "agitated or high" at the time. She sent a fax to him in July when a mutual friend died of cancer. However Tomi wasn't really aware of her existence until the day before she died, when she spent an hour or so chatting about art and literature. Tomi said she may have been anxious or had something on her mind, but it was difficult to tell as he didn't know her well. The Gardai took several statements from him and Yvonne and their children. He would be an unlikely suspect. He lived quite a distance away and didn't drive.'

    Something I keep coming back to is the fact that Daniel was the last one to speak to Sophie.

    Was it a clear night? I looked up any celestial events that night and the Ursid meteor shower was peeking.

    Could Daniel have asked her to step outside and look up at the sky, perhaps with a personal significance attached?

    It was also the solstice, which seems significant but probably isn't. Then again it could have been significant to Sophie, enough to be persuaded to step outside. I'm a bit like Sophie, I've spent time alone or otherwise in remote parts of Ireland, including west Cork, and I mark things like the solstice.

    I know people sometimes say the wine bottle is a red herring but I can't imagine how.

    There was a third murder weapon that investigators think was used but was never recovered, and that it was supposed to be lighter than the flat rock and the cinderblock. PhilMathers: 'Yes, it was the opinion of the pathologist that one of the weapons was "fairly light" because she had minor injuries in places such as her arms.'

    Corkscrew?



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