Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Not at all Frank, if I wanted to wind you up I’d post stupid shìt like positing I must have touched a nerve because you express an opinion which disagrees with mine. I’m not into that shyte.

What it means is exactly what it says - there IS more to sports than facts and figures. I’ve no doubt you’re aware of how often it’s been said by a few people that sports are a way of life, or that indeed they are a religion (I disagree with that assessment, but respect their right to hold a belief which is different from my own).

The point about pickleball was obvious. It was in reference to the fact that you’re making out as though the rules of sports cannot change, but that’s exactly what has been done recently in order to exclude people who are transgender. That was the specific purpose of the rules changing, let’s not play silly beggars and claim that anyone still has the right to play as long as they play by the NEW rules.

The new rules had nothing to do with fairness in competitive sports for women, they were everything to do with the fact that traditional sports are in decline. They’re not getting the recognition and respect (and funding) they once were, as new sports are being developed and are gaining popularity. Sure, Overheal hasn’t heard of pickleball and he lives in the US, it’s a big continent so that’s not surprising, same way you pointed out that Jordan Peterson is a nobody in Canada- it’s a big country!

But pickleball is one of the fastest growing sports in the US, receiving lots of attention from financial backers, celebrities and sports personalities alike. Even sports stars who once dismissed it as silly:

https://www.essentiallysports.com/wta-tennis-nfl-nba-basketball-news-who-came-up-with-that-name-martina-navratilova-takes-a-sarcastic-swipe-at-pickleball-as-she-makes-a-serious-confession/

Have changed their tune a year later:

https://www.essentiallysports.com/wta-tennis-news-twelve-months-after-openly-bashing-pickleball-tennis-legend-martina-navratilova-backtracks-to-embrace-a-merrier-take-on-the-fastest-growing-racquet-sport-in-america/

That’s not to say it’s not without controversy as some tennis players aren’t best pleased with it’s growing popularity, or the noise the fcuking ball makes 😂

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/is-tennis-under-threat-as-pickleball-surges-in-popularity-13037566

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/05/blame-threat-and-clash-the-war-between-pickleball-and-tennis-players-is-escalating-on-and-off-the-court

I really think you are not sure what you’re even trying to say anymore.

Ive never said rules can’t change, but you already know that. Every sport has rules…thats the point. Why are you mentioning this at all? What’s has pickleball got to to with this subject either? It’s not tennis, I hope you know that…

You’re dithering on about things that have nothing to do in the slightest with transgender athletes, mainly because you’ve nothing to say to the topic so you revert to “feelings” or the odd mention of human rights (it has nothing to do with that either).

You drop in links which prove nothing, another tactic.

Youve no real position on this, and if you did it would be easy to dismantle. You’ve tried to use funding or reference when sports has discriminatory rules, which they don’t anymore.

Biological facts are all that matter in this debate, you seem to struggle with that so much.

Because the issue only ever raises it's head when it's trans-women looking to take part in women's sports. It's never a problem regarding trans-men competing in men's sports, because in truth, they can't. Because of biology.

And that’s simply not true -

While he qualified, Mosier was uncertain about his eligibility to compete in the Duathlon World Championship Race in Spain in June 2016 due to the International Olympic Committee policy around the participation of transgender athletes, with specific provisions from the Stockholm Consensus in 2004. In 2015, Mosier challenged the policy, resulting in the creation and adoption of new IOC guidelines for the participation of transgender athletes. Mosier was considered the catalyst for change in the policy in January 2016, after he successfully advocated for change in the policy to allow his participation in the World Championship and future races. Following the policy change, in 2016 Mosier raced in the International Triathlon Union Sprint Duathlon World Championship race in Aviles, Spain, becoming the first known transgender athlete to compete in a World Championship race.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

In all fairness plodder this thread wouldn’t have been started at all were it not for a complete unknown as Iszac Henig -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iszac_Henig

Chris Mosier is more well-known not just because of their sporting achievements, but because of the fact that they managed to get the IOC rules regarding transgender athletes overturned, and they continue to advocate tirelessly in advancement of the rights of transgender athletes to participate in sports, including in school sports which are a fairly big deal in the US.

The reason they do most of the heavy lifting in any discussion regarding transgender athletes is simply because there aren’t that many people who are transgender in the first place, even less who participate in sports, and even less again who participate in sports at elite competition level! I mean you could, literally count them on one hand. Yet anyone is expected to believe that transgender athletes are going to dominate women’s sports based on the performance of a single individual?

You don’t point out the heavy lifting there though? I’m not even curious as to why not to be honest, it’s pretty obvious 😏

Did they win? Or even get near it?

And partaking and competing are two different things.

Yes...facts only suit my purposes when we are discussing *checks notes* sporting events that have been recorded and documented. How dare I use FACTS to make my point, I can't even look at myself in the mirror.

Nice try with the "feelings" comment, we will leave that to you, as you don't have any facts or data to back up your argument, which none of us really know what that is...one day though, right?

Last year, there were dozens of trans women (biological males) competing at the top level of various kinds of cycling in the US alone, regularly winning prize money.

You've mentioned Chris Mosier multiple times, but when he competed at world level, he never won anything or came near it, which is what the "heavy lifting" comment referred to. He performed exceptionally well, which is why there aren't many Chris Mosiers or Iszac Henigs for that matter in men's sport. But, trans men are not a threat to top level men's sport.

Seems a lack of facts is what your position is (again, none of us really know, you post links and long post with no substance).

This "mountain" of evidence you speak of, care to post any of that? 185 pages and here we are, a few posters really would love to know your position, the one that isn't based on biological facts, of course.

Might it faith based, hence why there is no evidence for it?

Surely you can’t be serious Frank? I’ve posted plenty of evidence to support the fact that sports isn’t just about biological sex and you’ve floundered about like… well I don’t know really*, and pretended you didn’t understand the point being made. It doesn’t seem reasonable that you would expect I should do the same again, only for you to pretend you don’t understand it again.

*I was going to say you’ve floundered about like a sperm whale, it seemed apt given they have the thickest skin and the biggest brain in the animal kingdom, but on second thought it would have been inappropriate. They get their name from the organ in their head, which when seamen first opened it they thought it was… y’know 😬

Your last paragraph is just weird, very weird.

And for your evidence, all of a sudden you have evidence to support the fact that sports aren't just about biological sex...the irony of that statement.

You have never provided any evidence, no data, no results, no times, no weights, nothing at all to support your position as it is just based on feelings...that is all. I do know what you are trying to say, and I wholeheartedly disagree with it due to the lack of any facts or data to back it up.

It has been done to death that biological differences between males and females lead to vastly difference performances across a wide range of sports and games. You have simply denied or ignored (mostly both) this and say its due to lack of funds or "facts aren't everything". Your position has no foundation to be really taken seriously when that is how you approach it.

You are denying scientific fact, you provide nothing to counter it (you will claim you have, you just haven't), you just repeat the same stuff time and time again. You have no genuine desire to engage in any kind of conversation about this, you just use emotion over facts.

I do know what you are trying to say

Thank you Frank, that’s all I needed to know. I suggest we move on now as this tete-a-tete is going nowhere productive.

Helen Joyce - whose professional career is as a journalist and author, and more recently as a founder of not-for-profit company Sex Matters, which seeks to ensure that sex-based rights are protected in law - has been published twice in The Guardian. Once in 2008, before the controversial gender identity ideology and the shocking and brutal consequences were on her radar, and once in 2022 alongside Sex Matters' co-founder Maya Forstater, on the letters page.

Much as I would be in favour of The Guardian, or any mainstream publication for that matter, giving more inches to sex-realist perspectives, I don't think the letters page really counts.

The usual evidence-free waffle from you.

Performance is tested every time anyone competes in sports. We have billions of data points which clearly illustrate the performance advantages that male sex athletes have over female sex athletes. Transgender people are either male or female sex. They are not set-aside in any way from this humongous volume of data. Their gender identity has no impact on their sex.

If you are asserting that possession of a gender recognition certificate will have an impact on sports performance could you please provide evidence supporting this? Even if you can't provide evidence could you please outline the mechanism by which possession of a gender recognition certificate will alter someone's performance level in sport?

If you can't do that then we can assume your evidence-free waffle can be easily ignored as being entirely imaginary and baseless.

There are plenty of sports where the male category is better funded and more widely supported. There are also sports, such as the biggest sport in the biggest sporting event on the planet (Athletics, the Olympics), where male and female sports are equally prestigious and equally funded. And yet there is still a massive performance difference between male and female athletes. So yet again you are presenting irrelevant evidence-free waffle.

I feel it's necessary to point out that there are many sports where allowing men (regardless of how they claim they feel and/or identify) to compete against or play with women adds additional risk of injury for the women taking part.

More evidence-free waffle. And some outright lies included as well.

Can you provide us with evidence of where sports are excluding players who were previously able to participate. As this thread was started about swimming how about you show us where in the World Aquatics Rules they exclude someone from swimming who was previously not excluded?

I am part of the governing committee in two sports organisations. I can tell you with 100% certainty that we spend no time whatsoever worrying about the image of our sport, or trying to change the participation rules in the sports to exclude anyone in an effort to improve the image of our sports. You're just making BS assertions that have no basis in fact. Outright lieing.