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Northern Ireland and powersharing in Stormount.

  • 17-01-2024 9:34pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,839 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Will they ever get back to having a Government in Northern Ireland? Its nearly two years of no Government now and its a disgrace.

    Yet again today they could not agree on a speaker for the house no Government even do there workers are about to go on strike.

    How would you solve it is it solvable?

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,603 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    The only way to restore power sharing is to let the DUP have the first minister post. They just can't stomach a sinn Fein first minister and every one of their objections is dancing around that inconvenient fact.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,681 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    ^^^^

    100% this.

    They can waffle about protocols and brexit and border etc, but the cold hard fact is that they simply can't accept a Catholic/Nationalist as the top dog.

    They never thought the time would come, now it has.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,736 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    But if the DUP get offered the post of First Minister and jump back into government doesn't it look terrible for them, proving that it was never about the Windsor Framework as they have constantly claimed it is.

    It looks much better for them to stay out claiming it's because of the Framework rather than going back in if they just get the First Minister job.

    I think they will fudge their acceptance of the framework eventually and just go back in regardless of who is First Minister





  • The whole way the assembly is run is going to have to be looked at by the two governments. The inclusive nature of how it operates is now holding it back. Having to declare as "Nationalist" "Unionist" or "Other" and items of business needing "cross community support" in order to proceed are now being used by the two traditional blocs to hold things up if they don't get their way. It's understandable that an inclusive system of government was brought in to avoid the possibility of a re-run of the old pre 1972 Stormont regime. But it's clear now that the current system isn't fit for purpose.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,171 ✭✭✭trashcan


    I would guess their plan is to try and hold out until there is another election, in the hope that they can reverse the result of last time. If that happens, watch the Brexit/protocol issues suddenly get resolved to their satisfaction.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,604 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    The DUP are like the kid who gets in a huff when he is loosing so takes his ball and sulks off home ruining it for everyone.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,488 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Would they increase their seats in a new election? Seems the unionist vote is split.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,998 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    At the last election they got 21% of the vote but 28% of the seats, which looks like extraordinary good luck. So, even if their vote share doesn't go down at all in the next election — even if it goes up a bit, in fact — there's a sporting chance that they'll end up with fewer seats, rather than more seats. And they'll know this.

    I don't share the view that this is all about not having an SF First Minister. No doubt that's very unpleasant for them, but they are perfectly aware that it's meaningless; the titles may differ, but the legal powers, status, role and authority of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister are in fact identical. They'd like to hang on to the symbolic title, but I don't think they would jeopardise their access to power and patronage, and risk some form of direct rule with input from the Irish government, for the sake of an empty symbol. I think their objections to the Windsor Framework are genuine. The way they're pursuing those objections is astonishingly stupid, but the objections themselves are sincere and heartfelt.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 687 ✭✭✭steinbock123


    Why isn’t there a rule that says if you stand for election, and win, you must go to Stormont and take your seat. If you don’t, the seat goes to whoever finished second. And if second place refuses, give it to the third place finisher. And - nobody gets paid a salary, or even half a salary, if they don’t take their seats.

    They wouldn’t be long about going back then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,736 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    I doubt SF would be interested in setting that sort of precedent.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,681 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    True. After all, SF refused to work and brought down Stormont in recent years as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,585 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    You don't think unionists would act stupid and dangerous for the sake of an empty symbol? Are you aware of what the DUP are?

    The DUP are a disgrace, but the real problem are the people who watch their country fall into ruin because their politicians won't do their jobs and then go out and vote for them again.

    If the DUP doesn't get downvoted into oblivion if ever there is another election then Northern Ireland deserves all it gets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,998 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    What Tod said.

    Plus, there's an obvious issue of democratic legitimacy in awarding a seat to a candidate who was rejected by the voters — voters who may have voted for the winning candidate in the full knowledge of their abstentionist policy.

    A more defensible reform would be arranging matters so that MLAs couldn't, by absention, prevent the formation and operation of an executive. They could opt out themselves, but they couldn't prevent others from participating. But that means ignoring or overturning the multi-party agreement. It would be very problematic for the UK government, or the two governments, to do that without securing the buy-in of the parties to that agreement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,681 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    They do say you get the politicians you deserve. Its your choice.

    But the nature of NI politics always means that a large section of society will always vote for the same party, whether it is good for them or not.

    I know plenty of SF supporters who HATE the SDLP, and would never vote for them, and vice versa, so it's not just the unionists you can blame for being intransigent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,102 ✭✭✭afatbollix


    Why won't the Westminster government call an election in NI?


    They can't form a government so let the people decide until they elect a government who can.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,519 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Stand up to the f*cking DUP. They're directly responsible for the whole mess so the continued pandering to them by Westminster is insane. Either they go back to power sharing or NI goes under direct rule and Westminster just shoves through anything SF fancies. Or we could do a border poll and make them someone else's problem (speaking as a UK resident).

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,839 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    I agree with all the posters here about the DUB. I was hoping that the voters in Northern Ireland would destroy them last year and when thet did not I was very dissapounted with them. I think another election is needed in Northern Ireland and if it happens and the results are near enough the same then the people of Northern Ireland have no one to blame but themselves fir whatever happens after that. The DUP are a disgrace and deserves to be destroyed in the next elections.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    To be fair, it's not all of the nearly 2 million people of Northern Ireland that are to blame, it's just the people that vote for the DUP and other parties that refuse to form a government. So one half of the people have the other half to blame for it.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,519 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    That'd just split the Unionist vote though. A lot of Unionists might prefer the UUP or someone more moderate but voting another way risks a Republican win so the DUP endures.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 652 ✭✭✭BaywatchHQ


    I haven't voted in 6 years so I am not to blame for anything. I voted for Brexit though



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,791 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Didn't Sinn Fein shut down the assembly the last time?

    Maybe if they got rid of the DUP and Sinn Fein then Northern Ireland might have some hope.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    As I recall it, Sinn Féin called for a fresh election in 2017 after the DUP were caught out with the whole cash for ash scandal.

    Then after the election the negotiations between the parties led to a deal that the DUP walked away from and they refused to resume negotiations for years.

    This current stalemate in negotiations is just another example of the DUP denying Nationalists their rights.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,791 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    That's a specific view on it.

    Removal of DUP and Sinn Fein would go a long way to getting a lot of issues resolved in the North




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,791 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    From the article

    Did Sinn Féin bring Stormont down for three years?

    In one sense, yes – but it’s a bit more complicated than that.

    So yes they did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Ignoring the part where as pointed out already, the DUP did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,791 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Excellent example of what is going on in Northern Ireland

    A supporter of a party totally burying their head in the sand and ignoring what is going on.

    As I said the best result for Northern Ireland would be for the DUP and Sinn Fein to get kicked out. Then they might be able to move on

    The GFA agreement is 26 years ago now and the two of them have spent 26 years bickering like clowns.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    You're very quick to accuse there, assuming I am a supporter of Sinn Féin. It's not a biased point to point out the DUP are at the core of all the issues here and it's not a new thing.

    And taking away voters rights to vote for parties they prefer is obviously not compatible with democracy. Voters are entitled to vote for parties that carry out their wishes, it just happens that the DUP voters aren't bothered with the current status enough to change their votes.

    Getting rid of the parties will not make any difference, what you are really saying is get rid of the voters behind the parties, and obviously that is not the way forward. When there are two large parties that won't meet in the middle and preventing the devolved government from forming, what else can be done if one side refuses to negotiate? Just wait for the State Secretary to call another election, which for some reason he is refusing to do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    What is he waiting for? For the country to get so bad that it will eventually force the DUP to come to the table?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,519 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Both sides.

    The DUP are responsible for the Brexit nonsense, the protocol hullabaloo and the shutdown of the Assembly. Sure, both sides bicker but only one engaged in corruption and was too stupid to make sure they benefited from it.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,791 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    You are backin Sinn fein on the thread so supporting them, if you are a supporter of the party so be it.

    In reality as I said majority of the issues in the North would be resolved if they dumped the DUP and Sinn Fein.

    I doubt anyone voted for Sinn Fein hoping they would manage to shut down the assembly AGAIN by bickering with the DUP AGAIN.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    You're not making any sense here. The DUP are refusing to allow a devolved government to form, not Sinn Féin. It's clear who you are trying to scapegoat here. Why are you trying so hard to deflect blame from the DUP?


    "I doubt anyone voted for Sinn Fein hoping they would manage to shut down the assembly AGAIN by bickering with the DUP AGAIN."

    Comments like this one suggest you don't have a clue what you are on about.

    Try reading up on it, you'll find reports such as the following:

    "There has been no functioning government in Northern Ireland as the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) is refusing to restore power-sharing unless the sea border created by the Brexit deal is removed."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Conservative Party kicking the can down the road.

    "The legislation also is expected to delay, once again, the legally required date for the next Stormont election to early 2025 — by which time a U.K.-wide general election will likely have ended the Conservative government’s 14-year reign and turned Northern Ireland into a problem for the British Labour Party."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,791 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    You quoted an article as "proof" which as I already provided a section from that article.

    If you just want to constantly point the finger at the DUP and not realise that Sinn Fein are equally as bad that is your choice.

    As I said both parties getting kicked from Northern Ireland would go a long way to finally getting issues resolved and a proper assembly.

    One party is as useless as the other.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,681 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    If there was an election in the morning, after the major strike and so many suffering hard times, the vast majority would vote for who they voted for last time.

    Sometimes the voters have to take a bit of responsibility.

    You get the politician you vote for.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,364 ✭✭✭arctictree


    Looks like Stormont will be returning pretty soon. Great to see some progress.





  • While I agree with the sentiment, "both parties getting kicked from Northern Ireland" is a bit simplistic. As in every country, NI parties exist because they are voted for. Remove the parties and a similar, possibly worse, party would fill those spaces. Addressing why people feel the need to vote for extremism on both sides rather than their moderate alternatives, that's the key here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,791 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    But the people are not voting for both parties to shut down the assembly at any whim they decide to come up with

    Remember while the assembly is shut down all these politicaisn are sitting at home doing nothing on full pay. Do you think people want that?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,839 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Well it looks like the Northern Ireland Assembly could be back up and running by the weekend and about bloody time too.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,791 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Till the next minor issue they can bicker over and try shut it down again



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Will have to wait and see what the concessions were. Could be nothing major, or could cause the EU to object. Interesting the DUP are refusing to give any details for the moment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,636 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    I think this shows the need to remove these vetos. No other parliament has them. We are 25 years removed from the GFA and the associated "peace in our time". (purposeful misquote btw)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,204 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Ide say the strikes rattled them.

    Very dangerous for the status quo to have non sectarian unions coming together and striking like in a normal democracy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,904 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Bryson is a very angry little man today.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,516 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Other parliaments don't really need them, but then other parliaments aren't really divided along sectarian lines. The distrust between the sides is several hundred years old, so it's probably a little unrealistic to think that it should have evaporated after 25 years of basically peace. If the vetos are there since the GFA, the removal of them would be called a reneging on the GFA by one side, no matter how well-intentioned, and the suggestion of the removal of the vetos by one side would cause the other side to wonder what advantage their opposition is looking to gain.

    The biggest expression the people of NI could make that they want to move past sectarian identity politics is to continue voting for the non-sectarian Alliance party in greater numbers which would really put the willies up both the DUP and Sinn Fein and force them to work together a bit more constructively lest they lose relevance totally.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,230 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭TinyMuffin


    And they’ve all been getting paid while it was closed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,636 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Those are like stabilizers. Sometimes you have to take the stabilizers off. If 25 years isnt enough, how long is? Also, when they are absorbed back into the Irish state, there won't be the same setup anyway.

    This is the sickening part. They shouldnt be paid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,516 ✭✭✭✭briany


    If the vetos are still needed after 25 years , then you might say no amount of time is enough. The GFA was great to put a stop to the violence, but it didn't do a lot to quell the suspicion between the communities and parties who represent them. They won't end until unification occurs. Even then, if the setup was that NI would become a special autonomous region of Ireland, they'd probably *still* have the veto.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,364 ✭✭✭arctictree


    Does anyone else think that this assembly is just not going to last? I mean once the DUP hear that Michelle O'Neil has been speaking to anyone without the deputy first minister, they are going to freak out. Especially if it involves anyone in the Irish government...



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