Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Ian Bailey RIP - threadbans in OP

Options
1686971737490

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..



    Agree my past point is highly speculative

    Does he look like a killer to you




  • Registered Users Posts: 30,617 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It's even possible Bailey is innocent of the murder and lied about the getting up to finish the story part of the alibi, at least the hours of it. Maybe he has a memory blackspot from drink. Innocent people lie, perhaps they have a previous conviction and are worried they are being fitted up for a more serious crime. Or at the time of the actual crime, they were engaged in some lower level crime or scandalous behaviour.

    It's even possible Bailey's account of the scratches is accurate, he was not scratched at the scene, but he is the killer.

    That's the thing with the evidence, it is tantalising and points one way but can be pointed the other too - "flimsy", as the Guards are on tape as saying.

    Blowing in whatever direction wind is applied to it.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    None of the other theories hold water imo

    The nearest to being plausible is the French hitman theory but even that is highly unlikely imo

    The other neighbour theory and burglary theory are highly implausible

    I believe the gardai got it right in that it was a nightime rage killing



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,617 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The Bailey theory is highly implausible, and as outlined by AGS doesn't hold water - as the DPP pointed out.

    The Guards are on tape as saying they have flimsy circumstantial evidence against Bailey, and that was when they thought they had Marie Farrell as a witness putting Bailey near the scene.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Why is it highly implausible

    What is a plausible theory here



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 30,617 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    As a scenario for murder (even limited to the murder of a woman in a house alone) it is highly unlikely. It is possible, it cannot be shown to be impossible. Implausible i.e. imaginative, far fetched.

    In the Garda scenario, Bailey at 3am on a cold December night - after a long day and a night's drinking gets it into his head to walk several kms over to Sophie's house, a woman who barely knows him if she knows him at all. On the off chance she might be open at that hour to his charm, or his poetry or whatever.

    And Bailey is scratched at the scene yet leaves no forensic trace at the scene.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭easy peasy


    I think the issue here is there isn’t one.

    Sophie was not that well known a victim. There are all sorts of rumours about affairs etc but no one seems to really know who she knew and who she didn’t. It’s hard to build a scenario when we don’t know who she knew locally, who she was close to, who she liked/didn’t like, why she disliked the people she disliked.

    Bailey could well be the murderer but surely when you weigh up all the evidence against him, you’re at least thinking - Jesus that’s not much.

    I don’t think this murder should have been as hard to solve as it has proven. The Gardai were too slow.

    Whoever committed this would have had blood all over them. If they drove, the car would have had blood all over it. The Gardai should have been ruining Christmas and searching every vehicle and home.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,246 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    Re: the French hitman theory.

    Hitmen are hired to dispose of someone efficiently and in a way that can't be traced. If this were the case, they simply wouldn't have done it in such a haphazard way.

    Any kind of murder in close-quarters, i.e., strangling, assault, even stabbing is risky because there's the chance the victim might fight back. Its far more effective to poison the victim, leave a bomb, make it look like an accident or shoot them from a distance. That's what you pay money for.

    The fact that the hitman theory was promoted by a suspect always raises suspicions.

    The circumstances of the crime scene (close-quarters assault, body left out.in the open) make it look a lot more like a spur-of-the-moment/'crime of passion' murder. If it was pre-meditated, it certainly wasn't done by a professional. There wasn't a lot of evidence to go on, fine, but I think that was due to luck on the assailant's part and the Guards making a hames of it in the early stages.



  • Registered Users Posts: 852 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Yes, there is a dearth of real evidence.

    Motive though, is key.

    If sex was the motive, then it fits in with the Bailey theory. But if sex wasn't the motive, then the Bailey theory goes out the window.

    And there is nothing whatsoever, in the known evidence, real or circumstantial, to suggest that sex was the motive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,617 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Not to say I think it was a hit man.

    But a hit that looks professional and neat would point back to the husband immediately wouldn't it?

    And you're assuming all hitmen are experienced, don't slip up or be surprised. Guns jam. Nerves. Making it look like an accident - things can go wrong, suspect breaks away and flees. Court cases and crime reports shows hits can go wrong all kinds of ways.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 852 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Yes,

    If I was the husband and I wanted to murder my wife, I would definitely try to find a third party to do it rather than attempt it myself.

    If she was planning a trip to Ireland, then I would view that as an ideal opportunity.

    And I would brief the third party to make it look like anything other than a planned "hit".

    Lastly, I would absolutely refuse to go to Ireland afterwards......why take the chance of being suspected and arrested?



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,617 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Bonus points for refusing to be interviewed with the Irish police when they try to speak to you in France.

    Against that, he did ask for the case to be reopened (but so were others), and there doesn't seem to be an indication that the divorce would be awkward or messy financially.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,246 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    Why would it point back to him immediately? If a hitman does a good job, there's no way to know they were French, etc. The fact that his wife died would surely immediately put him in the spotlight and he seems to have wriggled free of the noose, so to speak.

    Also, hiring a less than adequate hitman as a way to distract attention is incredibly risky. If Daniel wanted to have her killed, he'd want to make sure of it, anything else.is going to bring attention his way. So if he hired a hitman, he would have made sure it would go off perfectly so that it couldn't be linked back to him.

    If the hit itself was sloppy then a proper investigation would have uncovered it. I know the Guards weren't great but surely the French courts would have uncovered something before bringing it all the way to a conviction for Bailey.

    Either there's massive incompetence on a transnational scale or a massive conspiracy on a transnational scale because I don't see how else Bailey would be convicted in France.

    FWIW, the French conviction always troubled me. While my inkling is it was Bailey, I haven't seen enough evidence to conclusively prove it.

    I don't believe Bailey should be convicted because he is the most likely suspect, there needs to be evidence for it, but there's never been enough to convince me it was someone else. Again, the hitman theory was promoted by someone who was a.prominent suspect.

    Whether he did or not, it was always in his interest to put out another theory and lead the investigation in a different direction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    How likely though is it the husband sent a killer over here

    The killer didn't use a knife or a gun

    It's possible I suppose



  • Registered Users Posts: 852 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Yes, all good points and the hitman theory is definitely a long shot. Motive is the only circumstantial aspect that raises it as a possibility.

    But.....if it was an organised/planned hit....... it would be a very clever move to make it look like something else.

    EG. If Sophie had been shot, then the focus would have been very much on such a theory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,617 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It would point back to him immediately, because who else would have a motive and means to hire a hitman to kill her?

    You're assuming it would be a deliberate choice to hire a less than adequate hitman?

    The French had no real interest in uncovering anything that pointed back to France.

    So there is massive incompetence on a transnational scale, coupled with pressure to 'get a result' that doesn't make that party look bad and cross border friction. In Ireland there was unsafe conduct with witnesses, Guards on tape discussing changing witness statements and then witness statements lost, logs tampered with.

    The French took the Garda File and treated it as if it had been collected under the French system, where there is an investigating judge involved at every step of the way, overseeing the collection \ filtering \ review of evidence. It is totally different to the Irish system where the Guards operate without judicial instruction, and where the information is presented to the DPP for review.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 852 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    I think that anything that looked like a planned hit would put DDP into the suspect list....purely on motive.

    If he did hire a third party then it did not, necessarily, need to be a professional assasin. And there is no way to be 100% certain that a plan like that goes smoothly.

    Certainly, if it was arranged by Daniel, Ireland was a better option than France.

    As a theory, its a long shot. But so is the Bailey theory. Cases of husbands offing their wives are not at all uncommon, whereas cases of men walking through the night, attacking strangers in their own homes and walking home again without leaving the slightest trace anywhere are rare.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..




  • Registered Users Posts: 852 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Because he would have a strong alibi....not in the country.

    He could not, unless he agreed, be questioned.

    He could not be easily arrested on suspicion.

    He hadh is support network at hand in France, if needed.

    When two jurisdictions are involved in an crime, it is a huge impediment to the investigation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭TokTik




  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭TokTik


    Exactly, you only have to look at Blanch at Xmas to see that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I wouldn't pay too much heed to the hitman angle. The scale of the damage inflicted in the death (fifty injuries, etc.) suggests a lot of anger. This, in my opinion, was someone who had stored up a lot of hatred and anger towards her for whatever reason. I believe that if the killer walked off and got a block from the pumphouse rather than grab a nearby rock (or even use the slate they already had), this indicates some kind of meaningful (to them!) act of revenge.

    I don't believe that it is plausible that a man, full of drink, arriving on her doorstep in the off chance of getting laid and being rejected would contain this level of anger. Don't get me wrong, he inflicted massive damage towards JT but there is also evidence that he was able to take rejection.

    This was someone else who had a reason to lash out against Sophie in the manner they did. This wasn't a spurned alco in the middle of the nbight who managed to commit such an act without getting a drop of blook on themselves. This was someone who had time to clean themselves up afterwards and dispose of the blood soiled clothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭nc6000


    The lack of forensic evidence at the scene may suggest the killer was wearing gloves, but if the killer was wearing gloves then it's unlikely his hands would be scratched and unlikely his arms would be scratched if also wearing an overcoat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭easy peasy


    If I was to come up with any theory that I think is any way plausible, it relates to a possible affair or relationship.

    As stated above, there is a lot of anger and hatred in the attack and murder. Maybe there was something more to the relationship with Bailey. Maybe they had slept together.

    But I don’t think the murder itself is the result of someone looking for the ride and getting rebuffed. There is too much rage in the act.

    I think this was the act of someone who despised Sophie, maybe because she was going to tell their wife etc. Who knows. Don’t think we will ever know.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    AFAIR, the hitman theory had been mooted before Bailey said it. If I was Daniel, and I was asking someone to do a hit on my wife, I'd want it done exactly like this. Messy, making it look like a rage attack. Someone coldly knifing a woman in West Cork or shooting her with a sniper rifle looks exactly like what it is.

    If its a hitman, they would wearing a boiler suit or similar to make sure there is no blood on their clothing.

    If there's an expensive divorce coming up with a new girlfriend in play, who knows what people would do?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    You keep saying getting laid but that may not be the case

    Could have been that bailey showed up for an intellectual discussion



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    I'm sure Bailey could have walked blindfolded to Sophie's and back. He must have been very familiar indeed with a route he had often travelled.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,246 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    So what's the angle then? Daniel knew the French wouldn't be interested in pursuing any French links, to the point that they'd convict an innocent man over twenty years after the fact and when he himself was long dead?

    I don't see any evidence that he was so influential and important that the French state would be in cahoots to go that far for him.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭nc6000


    I've asked friends in France who know about the case if he was well connected and they said no, he wasn't.



Advertisement