Russia - threadbanned users in OP

It looks like the Chinese are threatening the Ukraine to stop Chinese companies from being added to the sponsors of war list

I assume ALL EU funding is examined - on an annual basis- as to how the budget given to various programmes /countries is being used. So the EU should adapt Biden’s strategy ie putting under the one heading the agreement to the budget for UKr and that border wall . In the same way the EU should review at the same time and in the same way how Hungary and UKr ‘ have been ‘ behaving ‘/ using the aid they have been given.

the above will then mean that Hungary would be subjected to the same set of rules as UKr. ORBAN cannot then say ‘ Oh , look at what UKr is doing, the bold boys’ if he is doing something himself

As someone who has quite the interest in naval history, I can't help but get a feeling of deja vu about this. In the 1880s, a line of thinking called the "jeune ecole" evolved in France. In effect, it held that you would be able to defeat a large "classical" ocean-going navy based around battleships by simply swarming them with large numbers of cheap and expendable assets such as torpedo boats, with only a handful of cruisers for overseas colonial work and commerce raiding. It's an intriguing idea but has never really worked out in real life, not when the French tried it in the 1880s, not when Japan tried it in the 1890s. There's even an argument to be made that the Soviet navy tried this approach during the first half of the cold war. Could this be the time that the jeune ecole could actually be made to work?

Possibly, but I'm skeptical. Those suicide drone boats are small enough that even modest size ships can put out a swarm of them, so they're not necessarily bound to shore bases and confined waters. They're low profile so might not show up on radar, or simply be filtered out as background clutter, and they're small enough to make spotting them hard. But they're also slow, susceptible to jamming and fragile, which limits the sea state that they can be deployed in. So this might just be a "Battle of Lissa" moment, one where a spectacular battle result arising from some rather unique circumstances led naval designers down a bit of a dead end for the next four decades.

That's not to disparage Ukraine's efforts. They've clearly found a weapons system and tactic that is bringing in significant results for them. In the confines of the Black Sea, these drones are definitely earning their keep, but I'm not sure that this approach would work in the North Atlantic or in similar blue-water environments.

In God’s name how the h*ll did Hungary -aka ORBAN- become a full member of The EU and NATO . Why ? Because when I see ORBAN I see Putin - who cannot be trusted even one mm, will break any agreement reached that does not suit him , etc, etc, etc. And what is ORBAN’s background re communism, etc,etc.

Believe it or not, the idea with the nets was actually tried in the "classic" battleship age at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. Look at any picture of a battleship, or even some cruisers from that era, and you'll often see diagonal "strakes" along the hull. Those were booms meant to hold anti-torpedo nets and the idea was that these would be deployed not just at anchor, but when transiting through areas that were susceptible to torpedo boat attack, such as confined bays or narrow straits. The idea was quickly dropped though, as the drag produced by the nets slowed the ships down too much. And battleships at the time weren't exactly speed demons to begin with. Similar issues would be encountered today, with any such nets likely obscuring the field of fire of point-defence weapons, potentially causing infrared and radar interference and massively increasing the radar cross-section. Plus, the nets dragging through the water would probably render any hull-mounted sonars useless.

I think what makes them so deadly in the Black Sea is the environment. It's a confined body of water, there's plenty of land to produce background clutter on radar that a drone operator could use as cover during the initial approach and let's face it, the Russian Black Sea Fleet isn't exactly acting like a top-tier navy. Also, it looks as if Ukraine is trying to maximize their chances by picking off BSF ships as they enter or leave port, in areas where they can't maneuver freely.

Regarding your point with Russia opting for similar attacks, I feel like they think that the mines that they laid are enough for now. Also, they probably don't want to piss of Turkey. If ships suddenly start going boom on the approaches to the Bosporus, the reaction might be exactly the opposite of what Moscow might be hoping for, i.E. an opening of the straits, but for NATO vessels. As it stands, the straits are closed for both sides, which, while not optimal, is at least workable, given that Russia can still use its own internal waterways to get at least smaller units into the area.

They started from a similar place to all the other former Warsaw pact states that joined NATO and the EU, think Orbán was one of the anti communist reformers back then.

I wonder if there's something about former empires though (!), that people in them are a little bit more susceptible to politicians like him, due to a history of "greatness" now lost that can be used to stir up feelings?

However Europe is full of former empires and great powers, especially over a long enough timescale, so doesn't seem like a good reason for Hungary to have been excluded from the EU or NATO.

Orbán seems to have gone bad as he's gotten older.

I think he was voted out for a time (...the people have spoken - the bástards!), but perhaps after that shock, when he got back in again decided he was going to make as sure as possible to fix + corrupt everything he could to cling onto power indefinitely.

your post reminds me of the Phrase ‘ that was then , this is now’. Applying new technology/ findings of current research to the use of drones , etc can drastically change the situation along with applying new and evolving strategies. For example, what does a ‘Prize Target’ do if it is simultaneously attacked from the air, from all four sides at surface level and from under water - coming in all directions. I can see the Proverbial ‘ barrel on the ships gun ‘ swing violently in all directions to keep them all ‘at bay’. The total cost of the drones could be a fraction of the cost of the Prize Target not to say the embarrassment of the loss

Do you think it will make a shred of difference to the existing imbroglio? I read that there are now 600 thousand Russians massed. Much vaunted Leopards are now scrap metal all over the place. A dozen or so British Challengers are where? F-16s? Where? Abrams tanks that are useless under the conditions. I’m sorry if I don’t clap like a performing circus seal when a video of a Russian falls off a ladder, but that doesn’t strike me as Ukrainian imminent victory.

Yes, but actually no. There were certainly torpedoes at the time, there's a pretty famous quote uttered by Adm. Farragut at the Battle of Mobile Bay that attests to that ("Damn the torpedoes! Four Bells, Captain Drayton", later often cut down to "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"). But the torpedoes that Farragut was telling the captain of his flagship, the USS Hartford, to ignore weren't the torpedoes we know today. Instead, back then, the word was used to refer to what we now know as sea mines. In fact, when the first "classic" torpedoes started emerging in the 1880s, they were often referred to as "self-propelled torpedoes", because they were seen at the time as a mine with a motor attached to it. It was only when these weapons turned out to be actually useful that they lost the "self-propelled" prefix and became known the way we know them today.

I guess you could argue that the C.L. Hunley was a very distant predecessor to the later torpedo boats, but honestly, I find her to be closer to either the modern day drone-boats or, in a more sinister fashion, suicide weapons like the Japanese Kaiten manned torpedo, insofar as that the boat needed to make contact with the hull of the target vessel to deliver its charge and a safe return was unlikely.

Much appreciated for the info ..

In connection with the Ukrainian naval drones have a read from the Red Sea today

It’s a pity that the Russians did not say so before the explosion so were sent on their way. All 69 would be still alive!!!!!!!!

but he is doing everything an honost broker would not

Or a Russian propaganda bot.

I believe the phrase is 'it's better to have them inside the tent pissing out of it than outside pissing in'