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Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Not really.

    They where and are two different things.

    You are criticising a party for evolving it's ideology. It would be a bit like taunting FG for evolving away from fascism.

    I wouldn't do that.

    I was talking about the history of sleeveenism in FF. They were legendary purveyors of it. Perfectly ok to criticise them for that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    The onus on the party that wins the election to form a government.

    The list of excuses coming from Sinn Fein are long and winding. Blaming everyone else for them not been able to get a single party to join with them is not a new one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    This is QED of exactly what Augme said.

    Dammed if they do, dammed if they don't.

    Another poster who will admit in one breath that no-one would or will negotiate with a democratically mandated party and then criticise SF in the next breath for the decision other parties take.

    Cannot win.

    Same hypocrisy says that SF are fine to be in devolved government in the north but not here. The arrogance of that particular one stinks to high heaven tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,139 ✭✭✭Augme


    Yes, if FF and FG refuse to enter into talks about a coalition with SF then obviously it's SF fault.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,909 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    does anyone truly 'win' an election using the pr-stv system? the party with the largest amount of votes dont always necessarily become a government party under such a system, as negotiations can always fail, and the fact, majorities seem to be done for the moment also.....



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,325 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It is a no-win situation largely of their own creation. SF and their supporters have been perfectly happy to castigate all and sundry who have gone into government coalitions over the years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Alex Kane on the radio there laughing at the SDLP use of language around elections:

    'We have received a mandate to go into opposition' which is a nice way of saying we didn't get enough votes.

    Some people see getting the most votes as 'winning' the election.

    There was a lot of upset and kneejerk reactions to SF claiming 'victory' last time out, but it's fairly commonplace for people to say that the party receiving the most votes are the victors or won.

    Ireland's Fine Gael claims election victory

    Reuters

    2011DUBLIN, Feb 26 (Reuters) - The head of Ireland's opposition Fine Gael party on Saturday claimed victory in the general election, saying he had been given a mandate to form the next government.

    "This country has given my party a massive endorsement to provide stable and strong government," Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny told reporters in his constituency in the west of Ireland.

    Voters incensed at the country's financial collapse and a humiliating bailout, routed the outgoing Fianna Fail government in Friday's vote, leaving it in third place for the first time in its history.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Name one thing SF have said about other party's and I can guarantee you can find other opposition parties saying the same. The abuse/castigation FF and FG have thrown at on another over the years, for instance?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,325 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    SF and their supporters being the key phrase. You have frequently thrown around pejoratives on FF and FG for both the Supply and Confidence arrangement and the coalition. And I don't care if others do it, that doesn't change the fundamental element that there is no point complaining about a "no-win" scenario that is partly of their own creation. The widespread trope of calling FF and FG the same party will end up looking particularly silly if and when SF and FF go into coalition.

    I, personally, have no issue with government coalitions of any sort and never consider them "selling out". I can not stand those who never intend to try and enter government more than anything.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You are just engaging in exceptionalism and a rather puritanical view of the cut and thrust of politics everywhere.

    I'm on the wrong side of 60 and have many long years experience of listening to that cut and thrust.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    You would need to talk to Sinn Fein supporters about that one because we have heard now for 4 years they won the election.

    Yes it is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,313 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    Any update on when Council & Euro elections are taking place ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    From Google

    Elections for the European Parliament take place 6-9 June 2024

    Irish local elections will be in 2024 (May or June). The exact date needs to be decided by government. 



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,400 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    And that is exactly how it is for all parties. Look at the poster on here who has never stopped criticising MM for FF going into government with FG after they said they wouldn't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,400 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    If Sinn Fein are the biggest party after the next general election but don't end up in government, that will be two elections in a row where they "won" the election but lost it. Their inability to get anyone to even talk to them about government is telling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,313 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    Sill will 30% practically a third vote for them , not really adult behaviour out of others if they wont talk to Sinn Fein if theyve the most seats , is it a bit like the DUP not wanting to go into govt with Sinn Fein .

    Maybe if their ever is a United Ireland will it be a Fine Gael/DUP coalition at first Election ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,139 ✭✭✭Augme


    That's because MM lied. Of course he should be criticised for lying. AFAIK SF have never categorically said they wouldn't go into a coalition with any party. MM and FF were clearly perfectly happy to go into government with FG so why they felt the need to lie before the election was ridiculous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,139 ✭✭✭Augme


    Is there anything that has happened in Ireland over the last 100 years that isn't SF's fault in your eyes? 😂😂



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    He was also ready in most honest observers eyes to go in with SF. When he found out that SF's overall vote would give them first go at Taoiseach he swallowed hard and went with FG, the party he told his electorate he would never coalesce with.

    That is a lie in anyone's book. Ordinarily the FG folk on here would be calling it out, they can't do it now. Gas really.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,400 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    In every election from 1930 to 2007, Fianna Fail were the biggest party and "won" every election in the way that you and others claim that Sinn Fein "won" the last election. However, you will notice that Fianna Fail didn't go into government after all those elections. Various coalitions went into government instead. Why? Because those other parties knew that Fianna Fail wasn't interested in sharing power.

    So, what happened after the last election is likely to happen Sinn Fein again, because every other political party knows that Sinn Fein isn't interested in sharing power.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    We know all this blanch.

    Some people refer to it as winning an election, winning seats etc.

    Big deal, imagine having the temerity to say you beat FF or FG. Them pesky upstarts!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Ahh did I upset you because I discussed Sinn Fein on a thread about Sinn Fein. You know how to use the report button so off you go if you have a problem with the post



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Sinn Fein claimed to win the last election, the onus was on them to form a government. When it was clear they couldn't and the country was in the middle of a pandemic it was left to the rest to stand up and be counted.

    Sinn Fein only popped up once the government was nearly formed crying that they had been blocked, yet even PBP couldn't find SF to discuss about forming the great "left alliance", releasing a public letter to try wake them up

    Sinn Fein and incompetence go hand in hand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Incompetence should be the word Sinn Fein run with, from top to bottom the party that is best description. Who creates an online army to attract new supporters and it does the opposite. Who wins an election and then can't even manage to get a single party to agree terms with them. Total incompetence.

    i will wait now for the list of excuses as every Sinn Fein discussed is full of......but but but they wouldn't let us play......



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Incompetence should be the word Sinn Fein run with

    😁😁This is a hilarious jibe given the incompetence's of the past 100 years here.

    Two parties with 86% of the vote manage to reduce that to just over 40% and still falling and you point the finger at a party that has never been in government here as 'incompetent'???😁😁.

    As my granny might have said 'away and have a titter of wit'.

    And don't point at the north because tomorrow they achieve something the failed statelet was designed to never allow them achieve.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    As I posted to you already Ireland is an incredible country to live in, yes we have problems but so does every country

    I love my country and especially the people that worked hard for years to give people the opportunities they get today, not been shipped off at 16 to England like my father had to do. Great people who came back and built Ireland up so now people have opportunities at home.

    If you don't like it and the people who built it you know you can leave. As per usual my point is clear, I don't need 100 posts back & forward with you wittering on about some nonsense



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Are you seriously suggesting that there has not been significant incompetency's across the decades?

    Bizarre.

    Now you try the emotional tugging. Carry on, it just looks ridiculous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,139 ✭✭✭Augme


    I asked you a question about SF on the SF thread. If you are going to have a little cry about being asked to discuss SF on the SF thread then maybe the SF thread isn't for you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,400 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Over the last 100 years, Ireland has gone from an impoverished peasant economy to one of the most modern advanced economies with some of the best living standards in the world. Socially, it has changed from a Roman Catholic obsessed country to one of the most welcoming of cultures. Sinn Fein had nothing to do with any of that, so I don't blame them for that. I give credit to everyone else involved.

    What I do blame them for is for the horrific terrorist campaign that held this island back in the 1970s and 1980s and which continues to hold Northern Ireland back even today. Over the last 100 years, the only thing that Sinn Fein have contributed to this country is support for killing our neighbours.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    It was a 'Roman Catholic' obsessed state because the parties of the power share allowed it to be. They are still blocking restitution for those who had their lives destroyed and blighted because a blind eye was turned to the crimes of the church.

    That all changed because brave political party's and activists stood up to the hold the church had and it wasn't the party's of the power swap. They fought every societal change that got going then jumped on the various bandwagons when the winds changed.

    Meanwhile FG and FF celebrate the men and women who killed 'our neighbours' too.

    The rose tinted glasses need to come off.



  • Registered Users Posts: 350 ✭✭myfreespirit


    +1 to this post.

    You have nailed it on the head.

    Слава Україн– Glóir don Úcráin



  • Registered Users Posts: 350 ✭✭myfreespirit


    Sigh.

    Yet more 'whataboutery', as the great John Hume might have said.

    Do SF spokespeople and their hangers-on have a single original thought in their heads, or do they simply parrot whatever message they receive from the shadowy men in control from Belfast? Just one original thought?

    Слава Україн– Glóir don Úcráin



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,882 ✭✭✭pureza


    Hang on one tiny little second here

    The main opposition parties did not share power untill 2016

    Secondly,your party of choice was busy being Marxist leninist in most of that time,a time when catholics world wide would have considered that as Satanistic,not just in Ireland

    So your party of choices record isn't stellar in regard to disturbing the status quo

    They were busy losing deposits,by their own choice and offering no alternative, what were people to do?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I didn't 'choose' SF until the 2020 election. Previously I voted for the parties of the power swap...now power share. No issue taking the blame for that.

    A poster posted an unbalanced history of the state and credited it to the parties who swapped power here for 100years.

    The truth is always more nuanced though.

    I have no issue giving credit where it is due for bringing us out of the poverty the British had us in but all the credit is not with those in power. They resisted change and it was the activism of others that brought the huge societal changes here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,139 ✭✭✭Augme


    Come on, you can't have your cake and eat it now blanch. FG and FF fought a mighty battle keep this country being roman Catholic obsessed for as long as possible. Leo himself was anti abortion and anti guy marraige up until very recently. Thankfully, the weight of public pressure was just too much for FG and FF to push back against despite their best and very long standing efforts.


    Aa for this island being held back in the 1970s and 1980s by SF rather than events like Bloody Sunday, we will just have to agree to disagree on that. Now I'm sure you felt that innocent catholics should have just accepted their fate of being shot when marching for equal treatment and but it's easy to say that when you aren't the one being murdered for simply wanting to be treated fairly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    The majority of innocent catholics/nationalists killed in Northern Ireland and in the Republic was done by the PIRA in cohorts with their political wing PSF.

    Even to this day some people won't go to the Gardai/PSNI without getting approval from SF because they are afraid of the repercussions. Those people been catholic/nationalist.

    That's before we start discussing the brutal beating/knee capping etc carried out by the PIRA. So waffling on about the innocent people in Northern Ireland in the same conversation as PIRA/PSF is totally incorrect.

    At the end of the day, the PIRA/PSF didn't achieve a United Ireland, they killed a lot of people in every community, they killed people all over Ireland and overseas and failed at their primary goal.

    A United Ireland that will only have a chance of coming around if we continue with the cross border projects the government have put in place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,139 ✭✭✭Augme


    No, they weren't. The vast majority of catholics killed during the troubles were killed by the British army or loyalists.


    Of course you think talking about the innocent people killed during Bloody Sunday is waffling on. No doubt their murders be blamed on SF and no one else as well.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    ##Mod Note##

    If you have a concern about a post , report it , please don't comment on the thread.

    Thank you.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,400 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    "By 2005 the combination of the impact of the Celtic Tiger upon our economy and the damage done earlier to Northern Ireland by the IRA campaign in effectively halting foreign investment there had dramatically reversed the North/South economic relationship."

    The great Garret Fitzgerald explaining the effect of the IRA campaign on the economy of the North. I don't think that there is a single paper anywhere in the world (other than perhaps some propaganda from Friends of Sinn Fein) that would claim that Sinn Fein's support for the PIRA campaign had a positive effect on anything.

    Another article that sets it out clearly is this one:

    "And so, when they carry out campaigns of violence against property or against people, in many, many instances what they were doing was they were damaging their own people more than they were furthering their cause."

    I couldn't have put it better myself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Bobson Dugnutt


    The only people who benefitted economically from the IRA campaign were the Slab Murphy’s and various other “hard men” who used the border to their advantage. SF did as well - Europe’s wealthiest political party.

    Being young is a great advantage, since we see the world from a new perspective and we are not afraid to make radical changes - Greta Thunburg



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I'd say the people SF represent in the north will be feeling very positive tomorrow.

    I'm sure you will be around to tell them they have no right to feel that way and Garrett would probably find a way to do it too if he was around.



    By the way, what is the point of foreign investment if almost half the people are treated as 2nd class citizens deprived of equality and rights?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,400 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is true, but tomorrow we will see Sinn Fein being given the opportunity to lead, and we will then see if they can do that. My money is on complete failure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No we won't. It is not a single leadership post.

    Try and understand how it works (or doesn't) in NI.

    The significance of tomorrow is symbolic. No Taig was ever meant to be in that symbolic role nor no nationalist party was ever meant to be in the majority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Plenty of Unionists/Loyalists benefitted from it too. And still do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    PIRA/PSF had no interest in the Catholic/nationalist community, just protecting the criminal organisation that it created, running drugs/diesel/guns was all they had any interest in

    Of course they had no problem protecting rapist, murders and paedolfies but a kid step out of line and he was beaten or knee capped.

    How exactly was that protecting the catholics?

    It's been done to death, but Sinn Fein trying to portray the galant battle is not what happened in reality.

    EVen people in Rep of Ireland wasn't safe, how many got killed for no reason apart from they stood out of line for the criminal organisation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well that is immediately contradicted by the vast majority who rewarded their political wing with their votes.

    Who are you to say that they had no interest in the Catholic/Nationalist community? That is up to the 'community' and they overwhelmingly have spoken.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,400 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    And remember that while PIRA were doing all these things, nobody North or South, bar the diehards, voted for Sinn Fein.

    It was only when the PIRA stopped killing people that Sinn Fein got votes, in effect, being thanked for stopping killing people. There was no support among any community for the PIRA, the strongest emotion was fear.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,882 ✭✭✭pureza


    You're doing the pot and kettle again

    No party here swapped power and indeed yours while around contributed to the little choice by being Marxist leninist hence losing deposits even when they stood

    You cannot give out about lack of choice when the party you're in here 24/7 lauding contributed to the situation and only got sense in the 2nd decade of the 21% century

    It's hypocritical of you and disingenuous



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