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Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

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Comments

  • #6572
    bren2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,950 ✭✭✭bren2001


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706655#Comment_121706655

    From Monday Feb 12 for SIPTU. Decision March 25th



  • #6573
    Nigel Fairservice
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 2,272 Mod ✭✭✭✭Nigel Fairservice


    The Forsa ballot seems to run from 19/02/2023 to 15/03/2023.



  • #6574
    BhoyRayzor
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭BhoyRayzor


    A whole month for Fórsa to ballot members, obviously not content with how long this has already been drawn out unnecessarily.

    At least they are finally confirming what the real deal is after pushing the 10.25% headline and even having in their email that they achieved 'Pay increases, valued at 10.25% over 2.5 years' but only one mention in the FAQ of the real figure 'The pay terms of the new agreement are valued at 9.25% over 2.5 years.'

    Scaremongering as well if the deal is rejected 'If the new pay proposals are rejected, there will continue to be no public service agreement in place. The absence of an agreement means that existing protections, which restrict management’s ability to impose workplace changes without consultation or agreement, are no longer in place.'

    https://www.forsa.ie/faqs-public-sector-pay-agreement/



  • #6575
    Ezeoul
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,274 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121708811#Comment_121708811

    The absence of an agreement means that existing protections, which restrict management’s ability to impose workplace changes without consultation or agreement, are no longer in place.

    Pfft.

    As if they haven't done in the past, even when agreements were in place.



  • #6576
    bren2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,950 ✭✭✭bren2001


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121708811#Comment_121708811

    What’s the issue with a whole month? SIPTU post their ballots meaning you’ve to allow for the ballots to be posted, information sessions to be held, a decision to be made, the vote to be posted back.

    Theres no benefit to FORSA having their vote counted early.



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  • #6577
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,063 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121708811#Comment_121708811

    UNITEs letter was word for word the same thing. Nonsense really, can you imagine management coming in the day after and start changing well established work practices, there would be mayhem. Sounds like something the government through in to make it sound better to vote in favour.



  • #6578
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Vote against this deal. Jobseekers Allowance increases by 7.4% net in 2024 whereas the wage of public servants increases by 3.2% gross.



  • #6579
    Greyian
    Registered Users Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Greyian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709374#Comment_121709374

    Odd, you seem to be comparing Jobseekers Allowance 2023 vs 2024, but aren't doing the same for public servants.

    Why not run the figures for what a public servant earned in 2023 vs what the same position will earn in 2024 under the proposed deal? The calculations for an AP on Point 1 is available in these 2 posts (https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701501/#Comment_121701501 and https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701746/#Comment_121701746)

    Even regardless of percentages, I'd much rather be the AP see an increase of €2217 in 2024 vs 2023 compared to the jobseeker who will see a net increase of €868 in 2024. The jobseekers increase in 2024 is also related to a once-off double bonus in January, which means any increase for 2025 will be lower unless another once-off bonus is given then.



  • #6580
    pygmaliondreams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭pygmaliondreams


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709622#Comment_121709622

    An AP actually has to get up in the mornings and clock in whilst the jobseeker's biggest worry is whether a snitch in the town is going to see him out working in the hand that day! Doesn't matter if it works out to more, the percent differences matter, also as previously stated there are more increases than just the base applicant's JSA they're getting money for the endless children, the wife, free medical cards, etc



  • #6581
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,861 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709622#Comment_121709622

    I'm amazed at this AP business. You do realise most staff are CO and not taking home a grand a week



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  • #6582
    pygmaliondreams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭pygmaliondreams


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709647#Comment_121709647

    not clock in actually they don't do that but you get me



  • #6583
    Greyian
    Registered Users Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Greyian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709664#Comment_121709664

    "Most staff" are not COs. The reason AP was chosen for the illustration was also given in a previous post (https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677761/#Comment_121677761, first full paragraph) and it is because an AP's increases during the proposed pay deal will always be based on salary %, rather than a fixed sum (e.g. the January 1st increase of 2.25% or €1,125 will be worth more than 2.25% to a CO, as they will get €1,125 which is more than 2.25%).

    So, let's run this scenario with a CO at Point 1 on their scale. Right now, Point 1 on the CO scale is €534.34 per week (or 27785.68/year, assuming a 52-week year, which most years are for payment purposes, or 2315.47/month). To work back to what they would have gotten in 2023, we have to first account for the 1.5% or €750 (which would have been €750 for a CO at Point 1) increase on 1st October 2023. Prior to that, their salary would have equated to €27035.68/year (or 2252.97/month). On 1st March 2023, there was also a 2% increase, which means prior to that increase their salary would have equated to €26505.57/year (or 2208.80/month).

    So, from that, we can figure out their 2023 gross salary. They had 2 months (Jan/Feb) at 2208.80/month. They had 7 months (Mar -> Sep) at 2252.97/month and they had 3 months (Oct -> Dec) at 2315.47/month. This results in a total gross salary in 2023 for a CO at Point 1 of €27134.80.

    So, we now have a starting point for what was earned by our Point 1 CO in 2023 - €27134.80. Now lets work out what they would earn in 2024, under the proposed pay deal.

    To begin with, their salary for January 1st without the proposed pay deal, which we worked out to €27785.68. Now, we know that on January 1st, they would get 2.25% or €1,125 (whichever is greater) under the proposed pay deal. They will get the €1,125 fixed figure, as it is greater than 2.25% of €27785.68 (which is €625.18). So, immediately their annual salary for 2024 jumps to 28910.68 (or 2409.22/month). So, for the months from January to May, they will get 2409.22/month. In June, there will be a 1% increase, so their annual salary will increase to 29199.79 (or 2433.32/month). So between June and September, their gross monthly salary will be 2433.32. And then in October, there is another 1% or €500 (whichever is greater) increase. They will get the €500 fixed figure, as it is greater than 1% of 29199.79 (which is €292). So, for the last 3 months of the year, their gross salary will be 29699.79 (or 2474.98/month). So, the total gross salary for a Point 1 CO in 2024 would be 5 months (Jan -> May) at 2409.22/month, 4 months (June -> Sep) at 2433.22/month and 3 months (Oct -> Dec) at 2474.98/month. This totals to a gross salary in 2024 under the new proposed pay deal of 29204.32.

    So, in 2023, our Point 1 CO had gross income of 27134.80. In 2024, our Point 1 CO will (under the proposed pay deal) have gross income of 29204.32. This represents an increase of 7.6% in gross income from 2023 to 2024.

    But what does this work out at in terms of net pay? Well, in 2023, net pay for a gross income of 27134.80 would have been €23380. In 2024, net pay for a gross income of 29204.32 will be €24762. So the proposed pay deal will see a Point 1 CO in 2024 earn 5.9% higher net pay (€1382/year or €26.58/week) than a Point 1 CO in 2023.


    So, what prompted this breakdown of a CO salary? @Peter Flynt's post which erroneously suggested a pay increase for public servants of 3.2% gross in 2024, and @SouthWesterly's post which suggested "Most staff are CO", which is also erroneous but did provide a valid reason for identifying what the proposed pay deal will deliver for the lower paid staff in the public service.


    Whether you are in favour or opposed to the pay deal isn't particularly relevant. What is relevant is the frequent misrepresentation of the figures and the real world effects of the pay deal. If you want to claim that a gross income increase of 7.6% for a Point 1 CO in 2024 is either too low or too generous, that's fine. But don't try to claim that it isn't the proposed pay deal won't deliver a gross income increase for a Point 1 CO in 2024 compared to what they received in 2023.



  • #6584
    SharkMX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    Im not PS, but if my union had negotiated that I would be leaving the union. Might as well not have them. Its the worst deal ever. Its almost like they dont know what inflation is.



  • #6585
    Gusser09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    There are no good examples to give really. I know CO's who are better off than PO's because they are married and have 2 incomes.



  • #6586
    bren2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,950 ✭✭✭bren2001


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709622#Comment_121709622

    You won't find anyone trying to do a fair comparison here.

    If Peter wants to quote the effective change due to the deal this year then he has to factor in what changes were made last year and the effective gross increase compared to 2023. Anything else is mathematically flawed. What you're saying is perfectly correct.

    The ironic thing is, the maths falls that is still is less than 7.4% but you're unlikely to see anyone budge from their positions.



  • #6587
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,257 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121708955#Comment_121708955

    Yeah. But what they're not saying is that with no agreement in place, we can take whatever industrial action we like if any such changes are made.

    Absolutely zero chance of anything like that happening, general election is due within, what, 13 months at most?

    Scrap the cap!



  • #6588
    Gusser09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121710162#Comment_121710162

    There is no appetite for industrial action though. I think we all know regardless of the deal being 10.25 or 9.25 it will go through handy enough. People won't stand on a picket over .5 or 1 percent.



  • #6589
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,257 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709647#Comment_121709647

    and pay mortgage or rent, don't forget. Seeing as though we're talking about LTJSA here. Nobody should be long-term unemployed in Ireland.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #6590
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,257 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121710174#Comment_121710174

    Try reading a post before hitting reply.

    I was replying to a post about the possibility of significant work practice changes being made.

    We all know you think industrial action is an impossibility (it still scared you into joining the union though)

    Scrap the cap!



  • #6591
    Gusser09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121710193#Comment_121710193

    There won't be industrial action it's a simple as that. If they had of stuck with the 8 percent there wouldn't have been industrial action. I know how disappointed you are at that. You seem really angry considering the deal you were looking for wasn't far off this one.



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  • #6592
    Gusser09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121710180#Comment_121710180

    Nobody?



  • #6593
    pygmaliondreams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭pygmaliondreams


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121710312#Comment_121710312

    if you're on JSA long term you're almost definitely a chancer, if you're disabled or unable to work there are other schemes that you should fall under



  • #6594
    Gusser09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121710330#Comment_121710330

    Agreed. Plenty of disabled can't work and will never be able to work and should be on DA. I actually agree with the tiered system they are looking to introduce regarding DA. Anyway off topic I suppose.



  • #6595
    Turtyturd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,397 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709683#Comment_121709683

    You didn’t need to clarify…your point was just as stupid without it.



  • #6596
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121710072#Comment_121710072

    Utter nonsense. The changes last year were under a previous deal. I'm fully entitled to note that those on Jobseekers Allowance are receiving a 7.4% increase in 2024 and those working in the public sector are getting a 3.2% increase in 2024 which they pay PAYE. USC, PRSI and Pension Levy on whilst having none of the extra entitlements that those on JSA claim (free medical card, HAP, etc)



  • #6597
    bren2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,950 ✭✭✭bren2001


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121711022#Comment_121711022

    You're perfectly entitled to do whatever you want. There's no statistical significance between the numbers you compare. Its an utter nonsense mathematical argument.

    If you take Greyians analysis, it really doesn't change your argument but gives you actual insights that have statistical significance. Of course, you refuse to even engage with someone that disagrees with your viewpoint.



  • #6598
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121711636#Comment_121711636

    No statistical significance? It's a fact that those on Jobseekers Allowance are receiving more of a percentage increase than public servants in 2024. In fact those on JA will receive more of a percentage increase in 2024 than public servants will under this entire deal from January 2024-June 2026.



  • #6599
    readoutloud
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭readoutloud


    I think both of you are using "statistical significance" incorrectly. You appear to mean "correlation".



  • #6600
    dubrov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,595 ✭✭✭dubrov


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121710231#Comment_121710231

    8% over 2.5 years has no chance of passing



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  • #6601
    bren2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,950 ✭✭✭bren2001


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121712607#Comment_121712607

    You thought inflation was over 6% last year because the average rate of inflation was that.

    What you’re comparing to JSAs is apples and oranges. The comparison is BS. What Greyian does, makes sense. It’s a fair comparison.

    Again, it doesn’t significantly change much and the percentage is still lower for the PS pay deal. Yet, you refuse to engage with Greyian and outline why their comparison isn’t valid in your opinion.

    You don’t understand statistics.



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