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Methane Cycle ignored

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  • 05-02-2024 10:17pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭


    I found this 2 minute video from Australia's Good Meat.

    It explains better than I could why cattle in agriculture have nothing to do with global warming.

    Why does or EPA, Government, environmental groups, print media and farming organisations ignore the science.

    They only add up the GHG from a cow breaking down grass, and ignore the equal amount of GHG absorbed by the grass. It is a closed cycle. But we only report one side of it.

    Remove all the cows and it will make no sufferance to global warming.

    Who should I tell?



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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,205 Mod ✭✭✭✭K.G.


    Farm theory did a vid about the different parameters used to calculate emissions lately and if you watched you d definitely think agriculture is being targeted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭WhichWay


    It was FarmTheory's video which provoked me to do the research. He is spot on.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,517 ✭✭✭148multi


    I think it is since 2006 that there has been a big jump in methane, but it's not from agriculture, it's from large landfills, lakes and gas /oil



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,337 ✭✭✭Suckler


    I worked on a few oil field projects, any time I read about cattle and methane I just remember these -

    https://www.google.ie/search?q=Oil+Well+off+gas+flares&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiYm9HQ-ZeEAxVgWkEAHZsEBnQQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=Oil+Well+off+gas+flares&gs_lp=EgNpbWciF09pbCBXZWxsIG9mZiBnYXMgZmxhcmVzSP8VUKQHWKgKcAB4AJABAJgBswegAZMbqgEHMC4xLjYtNLgBA8gBAPgBAYoCC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwgIEECMYJ4gGAQ&sclient=img&ei=ysvCZZiOBeC0hbIPm4mYoAc&bih=911&biw=2560&hl=en

    They burn 24 hours a day 365 days a year for as long as that well produces. The heat off them is ferocious; it's not just a trickle of gas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,517 ✭✭✭148multi


    Think methane leaks from them long after production of oil finishes.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,590 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Ruminant methane is just another stick to beat agriculture with. There's no sense in anything anyone says regarding methane from animals in Ireland, none more so since the numbers of animals is static for 50 odd years!

    However, off over there in Asia

    We are pissing into the wind here



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,517 ✭✭✭148multi


    Well our government are looking at the problem at a local level where they control, but how many Co.Co landfill sites around the country captured methane emissions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Coolcormack1979


    Just now some green lunatic banging on about methane and it’s all farmers fault.when asked by PK on newstalk should we cut farming completely she answered back by saying almost yes and started laughing.this is the crap that we are dealing with

    in a 100 yrs time this period will be looked back on with dismay and anger



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i watched that video, and come to a different conclusion to you; you claim cattle have 'nothing to do' with global warming; but the voiceover in the video does not support that conclusion.

    'if cattle numbers stay the same, eventually the methane produced by cattle will not contribute additional global warming'

    (emphasis mine).

    that's basically stating that cattle cause global warming, but if we don't increase the global herd size, we're in a steady state of the contribution they currently make. that is very different from stating they do not contribute to global warming.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,590 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    We are in a steady state in Ireland. According to the CSO, if I remember correctly, cattle numbers have increased 4% since 1973. They don't contribute to global warming as they are part of the cycle. What they emit is from stuff that has been stored and will be stored again. The don't generate new emissions. you've fallen for the whole accounting crap where only the output is looked at, and not the other side of the equation.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    "They don't contribute to global warming as they are part of the cycle."

    that's patently untrue. they are emitting methane - a very powerful greenhouse gas - which would not be in the atmosphere otherwise. just because it eventually decays does not mean it is not there.

    you're mixing up the idea of a steady state with something that has no effect.

    even that video in the OP is clear on this topic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,590 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    I'm very clear. They do emit methane of course. No argument there. But what they emit is methane, that has been converted to carbon and used to grow the crop that fed the animal to allow it release methane. It is not, 100%, adding to the overall levels of methane in the atmosphere. As for what they emit, the same amount is being taken in by the growing crops/trees/etc. It's a cycle, and it's carbon neutral. It's not "new" methane in the same way as extraction of fossil fuels can release huge amounts of it. That's new to the system from stuff that's been buried for millennia. It's the very definition of a steady state



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    this is not a difficult concept. if those cows were not there, that methane would not be emitted. methane is a powerful greenhouse gas. thus those cows are contributing to global warming.

    it does not matter that the methane eventually decays into CO2 and H2O. the fact that it exists for as long as it does means it contributes to global warming.

    even a video produced by a group intending it to be defending farmers says that.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    basically what that video is saying is 'methane from cattle contributes to global warming. but if the number of cattle remains the same, eventually the contribution of cattle to global warming plateaus (due to the way methane behaves), so if we don't increase the number of cattle, there will not be additional global warming'.

    the fact that methane naturally decays into CO2 does not mean that the whole process involving cattle is natural.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    And the plants and grassland would consume the CO2 emitted from big industry instead of the cattle if they were not there.

    I think your missing the point here!!!!!!

    Cattle were here long before plastic, oil & gas exploration, aeroplanes, cargo ships etc.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    were there 1 billion cows globally before plastic, etc.?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    thought experiment - let's say we were able to breed a cow which did not emit methane - all other things remain the same; the land use, the way they're grazed, etc.; if we managed that, the role of cattle in climate change would plummet. because the methane being emitted would cease and eventually all the atmospheric methane emitted by cattle would decay.

    so it's trivial to conclude that methane from cattle does contribute to global warming.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,590 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    And if we stopped flying/driving/eating then emissions would be down too.

    Why is methane now a huge issue, when it hasn't been looked at with anything with the same ferocity as the last couple of years, despite the numbers being static?



  • Registered Users Posts: 564 ✭✭✭PoorFarmer


    If you take the cattle out of the equation and let the pastures grow until they die naturally and start to break down due to microbial activity etc.. There is a methane emission then also is there not?

    Do you suggest we destroy anything that breaks down dead material since they will be net methane emitters also? Or maybe, just maybe, we breed a microbe that doesn't emit methane



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    so you are agreeing with me? that emissions would fall?

    you stated that they weren't contributing to global warming. now you seem to have reversed that.

    no one disagrees that flying etc. contributes to global warming. the issue was the argument that cattle rearing doesn't.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    anaerobic digestion would create methane (e.g. from wetlands, or artificially done). aerobic digestion does not; CO2 is created as there is an oxygen source to provide the oxygen for the CO2.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,590 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    They aren't contributing to global warming. They are using what has been captured, returned, and while doing that more is being captured. It's a steady state. Of course ending cattle, and all the other things would reduce emissions. That's not up for debate.

    The main difference is that cattle, etc contribute to the growth and sustenance needed by humanity. Flying doesn't. Driving doesn't. At least the EU have sort of come around that agriculture is a special case as there is a trade off between food production and emissions. Trying to reduce the emissions while keeping food cheap, high quality and plentiful is the hard balancing act that has to be figured out.

    Then again, the EU think that importing wood from South America and burning it to generate power is carbon neutral :-)

    Or growing crops to turn into fuel to be burnt and release carbon is carbon neutral.

    But God forbid you put a crop through a ruminant instead of a machine



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭White Clover


    The same number of cows were there 50 years ago when the planet was cooler. What has increased is fossil fuel usage, cars, foreign travel, consumerism. How then are the cows to blame?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    that's just a simple failure of logic.

    no one is suggesting they're the only source of greenhouse gases. if other areas have contributed and grown, leading to increasing global warming, it does not mean cattle didn't.

    and the first few sources i could find online suggest that we have maybe 50% more cattle globally now than 50 years ago anyway. if you've got a decent alternative source for the claim that we've the same, please share them.

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/livestock-counts



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    your post would make sense if cattle didn't actually create methane. that's the difference. they create an extremely powerful greenhouse gas (over 100 times more powerful than CO2). it's trivial to conclude that they contribute to global warming.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,590 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    They don't create methane. They recycle it. This is tiresome at this stage. The exact same amount of methane is in the atmosphere before the cattle created it as is after.




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭White Clover


    Irish farmers have no control of cattle numbers outside of the country. Are you suggesting that Irish cattle should be culled due to an increase in numbers in India or China? Where’s the logic in that?? We’ll do our bit here but not for other countries. The fact is that Irish cattle numbers are similar to 50 years ago when the planet was much cooler while fossil fuel usage and consumerism has rocket. If you’re denying that you are only trolling us.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    "They don't create methane."

    uh, what? they digest foods in an anaerobic environment, creating methane as a byproduct.

    if it was a horse we were talking about - which doesn't have a rumen and so creates far less methane - there'd simply be far less methane released into the atmosphere. your 'exact same amount' argument depends on the already existing steady state; your defence is that there's already methane there created by cattle.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    now you're moving the goalposts. you mentioned the number of cattle in the context of the planet, but now you're talking about ireland.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    lets say i 'invent' a new gas, call it magithane. it lasts for ten years in the atmosphere before oxidising to water and CO2. lets say i create a machine which pumps a million tons into the atmosphere every year. after about 10 years the amount in the atmosphere will have stabilised - a million tons would be oxidising out, being replaced by the million tons i'm pumping in.

    so i can state in ten years time, 'hey, me pumping a million tons into the atmosphere every year is not contributing any more magithane to the atmosphere so that's fine'.

    regardless of whether this ficticious gas was harmful or not, people would laugh at me for making up such a specious argument.



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