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Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    Frawley is the one where a move makes sense IF he wants to be a ten full time. I feel like Harry is close enough to stay although I would really like to get him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I think someone will leave for playing time elsewhere. It's not only 10's. There's a good chance that some members of the pack may look to move elsewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 733 ✭✭✭Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3


    of course there is players leave every season.



  • Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭jonok28


    I can see Leinster fighting tooth and nail to try and keep Frawley. If he was to leave, Leinster all of a sudden become a bit light at centre, especially if Ngatai leaves too. In an ideal world they would keep both Harry Byrne and Ciaran Frawley.



  • Posts: 0 Dexter Kind Boar


    The "IF he wants" here is the key point. There's been so much speculation about who will be moved when the real question is who wants to move? Either Harry or Frawley would be a nailed on starter at Ulster without Burns. Tector would be guaranteed time on the pitch of he moved.

    I support Connacht so I know a thing or ten about player movement. The real successes are players who chose to move for the right reasons at the correct point in their career.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    If Ngati leaves, Frawley certainly plays more at 12. He gets into the 23 and plays the bigger matches. If he does leave he probably backs himself to nail down a 10 jersey. His best option is Ulster, imo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    He definitely is a very valuable player especially in his versatility.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Frawley and JOB are key due to versatility. They cover several positions with a high standard. I hope to retain Frawley and I think his future is better served with Leinster. At the end of the day, it's his decision.

    With the rumors of Burns to Munster, I wonder if they approached Frawley.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    With Benetton up next week, we should have some injured players back. I hope Ross is back.



  • Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭jonok28


    I think Ulster will approach Frawley but I can see Leo and Nienaber convincing him how important he is to Leinster moving forward. I always thought that Harry Byrne is exactly what Ulster have needed for years. Harry and Nathan Doak have the making of a stellar 9/10 partnership. Harry would offer them the stability across the board that they have needed.

    Frawley is that perfect utility player in a Jacques Nienaber team that brings the team to another level. You are spot on about Jimmy O'Brien too. They are two members of the team that are essential to a Leinster team moving forward.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Never mind 12, if Frawley leave they have a huge gap at 15 behind Keenan who is not available most of the season.

    As I said yesterday the only reason for Frawley to leave is if he really wants to play 10 and no other position. He is already getting into the Leinster team and the Ireland squad based on his performances.

    If he wasn't in the Ireland squad you might say he will move to stake a claim



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Would Rob Russell be viable as a full back?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Huge gap? JOB and Larmour have both played there, and Osborne would be a very good break-glass 5th choice option.

    Yes, you're taking them away from the wing spot, but I think they'd likely sign someone anyways, especially if Ngatai leaves; wing or fb would be a very viable option for a signing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,453 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    I wouldn’t be surprised if McErlean gets game time at 15 soon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭FrannoFan




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 733 ✭✭✭Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3


    nah he is back playing, came off the bench for Terenure recently



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 733 ✭✭✭Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3


    hoping to see a lot of leinster players playing AIL this weekend.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,530 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Is Cosgrave playing AIL these days? If so, how is he getting on?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 733 ✭✭✭Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3


    he got injured at christmas playing for leinster dev and is out for the forseeable future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,914 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    If Ireland Persist with 6/2 people are going to have far fewer problems with being seen as a utility back.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭Serbian


    Agree it's not a huge gap, but I don't want to see Larmour in the 15 shirt again. He just can't hack it under the high ball. Everything else in his game is at least serviceable, but that's one area of massive weakness and very important for the 15 position. It's obviously pretty important for the 14 position too, but that's what has cost him an Ireland place, he'll probably always be good enough for 14 at provincial level.

    I think the management see Larmour as the break glass option and Osbourne is one step higher on the 15 depth chart.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    It's bizarre that Larmour is so poor under the high ball. It must be a mental block. Otherwise, he's quality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    JOB is likely Keenans back up. Cosgrave hasn't played for the seniors for a long time and he's currently out injured. He's also a year 3, so he hasn't taken his few opportunities.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,605 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    No less weird than McGrath not been able to pass consistently, or Porter's atrocious scrum technique. Always seems so bizarre that pro players fail to address such fundamental aspects of their position



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,773 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    Yeah I'm sure those players purposefully ignore weaknesses in their game because they really, really enjoy being bad professionals.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,605 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Sarcasm aside, the fact that they and the team have failed to address these deficiencies is pretty damning. Leinster have possibly the most professional set up in the game, it's frankly shocking that Porter in particular is still so poor at scrummaging.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    But he isn't though..

    The general consensus from Front row experts is that Porter is being wrongly penalised in a high proportion of cases.

    BJ Botha discussed the French game earlier this week and Alex Corbisiero gave a detailed review of the NZ World Cup game as well.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    yeah, you dont get 60 tests caps as a loosehead when you are "so poor at scrummaging"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,605 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    John Hayes career might stand in opposition to that statement. I would agree that Porter has suffered from some negative perceptions lately, but the fact is that's not without reason.

    He has had the same issues since he swapped across. His bind is too short, and he tends to drop his left shoulder and turn it in. His angle is kicked out, and while I'd suggest every LHs goal is to try and get away with boring in, he's too unsubtle about it. He leaves his hooker exposed, which often allows the opposition to isolate and attack him.


    He's been blown up enough times by refs at this stage that it ought to have been addressed by his coaches. Healy is a far superior scrummager, even in the twilight of his career.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Botha does not ref matches! His opinions are just that, opinions. Whatever is going on with Porter's scrum technique, it still has not being addressed. The refs make decisions rightly or wrongly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Healy is a better scrummager at 36 years old! Is this perception by the refs? Or is Healy just that good?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    A bit of both.

    Referees in general don't have a clue what's going on in the scrum and they base their decisions entirely off very narrow interpretations of the "picture" they are presented with , there is also a significant element of reputation layered on top.

    They don't tend to actually view each scrum as an independent unique event , which is exactly what they are.

    So a player with a perceived issue will tend to come out the wrong side of the decision more often that the facts should dictate.

    The same happens at the macro level , if a team is perceived to have a particularly strong/weak scrum overall , the referees will tend to factor that into the decision making process, so South Africa get away with all kinds of stuff at the scrum because the perception is that their scrum is really strong so they would have no reason to collapse or wheel etc.

    It's human nature , but it doesn't make the decision any less incorrect.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    It's dismaying that scrums are managed and judged by an assortment of individual referees. At this stage, Porter if pre judged is fecked. He can't buy a decision. I reckon the fault lays at Porters feet? He's responsible for his technique and his faults.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    There's definitely a need for a "rebranding" as it were and working with the referees offline to show the issues and where the misconceptions are occurring.

    Sharing the analysis like the ones done by Botha/Corbisiero would be a good start.

    To be honest , Referees should be sat down with guys like that and go through about 100 scrums on Video with those guys explaining all the nuance of what is happening.

    Also , the point made by Botha in his review of the France game about the overhead camera view is an interesting one - Should the TMO be used to watch that viewpoint during the scrums to give the ref further insight into what's happening?

    In the example Botha gave , the ref was on the far side of the scrum and the AR was 40m+ away on Porters side when they penalised him for turning in when the top down view shows it was clearly Atonio that caused the issue.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Yes! There should be more observation of the scrum. Perhaps using the Hawkeye.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,605 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    This feels like such an obvious idea. The TMO could have 3 views of the scrum, and call in to the ref if he sees a clear infraction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa




  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    To me - there's something very interesting in all of this, coupled with the South African's announcement this week of Jaco Peyper's role in their coaching staff.

    Is his role limited to just teaching the squad about particular rule changes etc, or is it unreasonable to assume he'll be liaising with some of his former colleagues to re-align perceptions or try and change opinions on areas where the Springboks feel they're being hard done by?

    They'd deny the latter, but to me it's not remotely unreasonable to assume they'll at least attempt some of this, and it's up to the individual referees to decline those kind of overtures. More likely to happen if he's friendly with a lot of still current referees though.

    The scrum you highlighted here was one of the most frustrating decisions in the game, because Dickson gave it almost instantaneously when he absolutely couldn't have seen anything definitive from where he or his AR were standing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 218 ✭✭Billy_the_Kid
    Master


    A 'scrum ref' on TMO who knows what hes doing would be great



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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    i dunno, peyper is certainly not the first ref to be appointed as a coach to a team.

    similar to peyper, Glen Jackson joined the Fiji coaching staff to focus on RWC 23, much more to explain to the fijians the actual laws than to change any preconceptions the world referees had against them.

    Jerome Garces joined the french coaching squad to focus the players on discipline issue they had been suffering themselves.

    interestingly teh bokke were looking to get Nigel Owens involved with their coaching staff for RWC 23, but owens couldn't take up the offer due to his commitments training the refs for the RWC itself.

    id imagine any professional referee that takes informal queries or influence from Peyper, would be running the risk of severe reprimand. The referees see themselves as a stand alone 'team' where they are all teammates. One thing refs are not shy on doing is talking, and i would imagine any attempted unofficial communication by a member of staff of a national team would be made aware between them

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭conquestscarer


    Antonio has fallen off a cliff as a scrummager and gets special treatment off of referees who still ref him as if he is the best in the world. Multiple times in the La Rochelle match he would go to kill Porter on the hit and if he didn't get what he wanted would push forwards and belly flop while Porter stood up. The same thing happened on Saturday on that scrum where he went for a belly flop because he didn't like what the hit gave him. Frustrating that Referees give him special treatment and wouldn't be surprised if someone pings him off the park.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Is his role limited to just teaching the squad about particular rule changes etc, or is it unreasonable to assume he'll be liaising with some of his former colleagues to re-align perceptions or try and change opinions on areas where the Springboks feel they're being hard done by?

    Personally, I think it's pretty unreasonable and a pretty unfair suggestion that the ref's in question would be open to / able to be influenced in this manner, tbh.

    Referees are professionals too, they don't want to go out and make mistakes any more than players do.

    Trying to exert influence on a ref on the field is one thing, but this suggestion about Peyper liaising with them behind closed doors in an effort to re-align perceptions / change opinions sounds more than a little shady to me, and I'd suggest all of the elite level ref's wouldn't entertain it.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,605 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Yea, he's always at it. Spends more time on his belly than a soldier getting shelled



  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    Ah come on - it's quite clear from a number of books, interviews & comments from people who were involved in the game that conversations happen behind closed doors all the time, and the notion that the South Africans (a rugby nation who are notorious for doping and other forms of alleged cheating over the years) would be completely above such shenanigans is a bit rich.

    The description of his role is to help the players "understand the referees and their interpretation of the laws", so he'll already presumably be using some of his experience from refereeing alongside other current referees (i.e. saying things like Matthieu is vocal on how strict he is on guys in at the side at rucks" etc), so it's hardly that much of a stretch to assume that if they had a similar situation to what we currently have with Andrew Porter where a lot of Irish players, coaches and fans believe he's being refereed unfairly, that if South Africa found themselves in a similar situation that Peyper would, as a member of their coaching ticket, reach out to referees to try and argue the case for his player.

    Your post is overly naive IMO - the South Africans are a great side, but they're both incredibly innovative and incredibly cynical historically, so whilst lots of nations have a history of sometimes having ex-refs in "coaching" roles, I don't think it's at all some fanciful notion that a little part of Peyper's role will be trying to get the inside line on ref's current thought processes and possibly some influence peddling.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You've missed my point. Maybe SA and Peyper are open to trying such shenanigans.

    I'm not at all convinced the referee's are open to entertaining them.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    Yeah, and I'm obviously not suggesting any referees necessarily will be receptive to him. But at the very least, the announcements about his appointment indicate that they're going to be using him through normal channels for this kind of work, and even in that regard his personal relationships with some of the referees involved and the respect they presumably have for him will likely help in their efforts.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    But at the very least, the announcements about his appointment indicate that they're going to be using him through normal channels for this kind of work

    thats a pretty extreme statement to be honest.


    as i said above, its not a new thing for a ref to be appointed to a national test coaching staff.

    Were there suggestions that france and fiji were appointing refs to get nefarious influence on their game referees?


    i think the referee team are professional enough to prevent that from happening, and i cant actually recall any incident in the past of a retired referee having any influence on current refs. its very much a "when your out your out" career, especially in today climate of some referees being fully professional.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    But at the very least, the announcements about his appointment indicate that they're going to be using him through normal channels

    I'd argue that what you're suggesting is not "normal channels" tho.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    I don't think it is extreme - there's a story which won't allow me to link here from iol.co.za which outlines the type of role he's expected to have now in the SA coaching ticket, and it clearly states the following:

    Peyper commanded a lot of respect on the field and as one of World Rugby’s elite referees of the last two World Cups, he brings with him excellent relationships with plenty of match officials around the world.

    Most importantly, though, thanks to his spotless relationship with World Rugby, he will be able to take any concern of Erasmus and the Boks to the governing body’s match officials panel before and after matches, knowing which channels to work through directly.

    Like, I think it's legitimately naive to think he's not attempting to use influence and relationships to help the Springboks relationships with referees. I'm not suggesting it's anything incredibly overt or as nefarious as you seem to think I'm suggesting, but there's a reason they go out and get a guy like him and put him on the payroll as part of their coaching ticket.



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