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Discrepancy Between Electoral Outcomes and Political Representation in Irish Politics

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  • 08-02-2024 2:11pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭


    The state of Irish politics presents a complex tapestry of challenges that call into question the efficacy of democratic processes in truly representing the will of the people. Despite the ostensibly democratic framework, the electoral landscape is riddled with flaws that undermine the principle of fair and representative governance.

    One glaring example of this is the repeated struggles faced by prominent figures like Leo Varadkar and Micheál Martin in securing election in their own constituencies. This phenomenon highlights a disconcerting reality wherein elected officials, rather than being direct representatives of their constituents, often find themselves embroiled in protracted battles for legitimacy, raising doubts about the authenticity of their mandates and the extent to which they truly represent the interests of their constituents.

    Moreover, the disproportionate influence wielded by minority parties, such as the Greens, who garnered just over 155,000 votes, in advancing policies despite lacking majority support, further underscores the democratic deficit within the political landscape. The fact that parties with relatively small electoral mandates can exert significant sway over policy-making processes not only dilutes the principle of majority rule but also fosters a sense of disenchantment among the broader electorate, who may feel sidelined in decision-making processes.

    The 2020 success of Sinn Féin in winning the popular vote serves as a stark reminder of the dissonance between electoral outcomes and actual governance. Despite securing the most votes, Sinn Féin's ability to translate this electoral success into meaningful political power has been stymied by the intricacies of coalition-building and the resistance of established political forces.

    The end result is a government formed through a convoluted process that often fails to reflect the genuine desires of the electorate. The mishmash of policies and leadership that emerges from such a fragmented political landscape not only hampers effective governance but also erodes public trust in the democratic process itself.

    This assertion highlights that no one explicitly supported a coalition government comprising Fianna Fáil (FF), Fine Gael (FG), and the Green Party. Personally, I conveyed to my FF representative that my backing was contingent upon their abstention from endorsing a coalition involving FG. Despite this, FF, FG, and the Greens forged an alliance, adjusting policies to retain authority. However, it's crucial to note that this amalgamation of power lacked a democratic mandate, as it wasn't endorsed by the electorate.

    In light of these challenges, it becomes imperative to critically examine and reform the existing political structures to ensure that they are truly reflective of the will of the people. Meaningful reforms aimed at enhancing accountability, promoting transparency, and fostering greater inclusivity within the political sphere are essential to address the deep-seated flaws that currently plague Irish politics and to pave the way for a more robust and genuine democracy.

    Post edited by Ten of Swords on


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Trigger Happy


    What? Could you elaborate a little?



  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭redunited


    Our current democratic process is flawed and lacks true democracy. Did anyone truly vote for a coalition of FF, FG, and the Greens? We urgently need a new system that accurately represents the people's will.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Augme


    Every system is flawed. I still think our one is one of the better flawed systems.



  • Registered Users Posts: 973 ✭✭✭Hyperbollix


    I see no problem with coalitions especially in the social media age. Plenty of western democracies have electoral systems that promote majorities or allow a minority in society to vote for parties that can easily accumulate majorities and they then proceed to wreak havoc by implementing policies beneficial to a tiny section of the population.

    If anything, having an electoral system that routinely requires compromise in order to form a government is probably a useful safeguard against the kind of madness we see playing out in other countries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭Notmything


    They didn't struggle to get elected, they split their potential vote to try get a running mate elected alongside them. Any struggle to assert their "legitimacy" is down to not understanding how things work.

    That you don't grasp this is not a good sign. Irish elections are about getting past the quota, whether you do this on count 1 or count 5 is not important.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,364 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Need to go back to Edmund Burke. Once anyone is elected to Parliament, their job is to exercise their judgement, not reflect the views on their constituents on every issue. If it were so, we'd probably be still hanging people in most countries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭redunited


    How can our system be considered better when a party, supported by only 155,700 voters, holds significant influence over larger parties? These parties, driven solely by a desire to cling to power, implement policies that impact every one of us



  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭redunited


    When you cast your vote , did you vote for a Green, FG, and FF colation?

    I would suggest you voted for the policies of the party you voted for.



  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭redunited


    Or they implement the policies they were elected on?



  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭redunited


    I advocate a first-past-the-post system as a more fairer system.

    The First Past the Post (FPTP) voting system is a robust electoral method that ensures the majority win by awarding victory to the candidate who garners the highest number of votes within a specific constituency. This straightforward approach provides clarity and transparency in electoral outcomes, as it directly reflects the preferences of the majority of voters in that particular area. By prioritizing the candidate with the most votes, FPTP fosters a system where winners are determined based on the support they receive from their constituents, thus upholding the principle of majority rule.

    Moreover, the simplicity of the FPTP system contributes to a more accessible and understandable electoral process for voters, as they can easily identify the winner based on the candidate with the highest vote count. This simplicity can promote greater voter engagement and participation, as individuals are more likely to feel empowered by a voting system that is clear and intuitive.

    Furthermore, FPTP's emphasis on majority victory aligns with democratic principles by ensuring that elected representatives have a clear mandate from their constituents. By electing candidates who have garnered the most votes in their respective constituencies, FPTP facilitates the formation of stable and accountable governments that are reflective of the broader preferences of the electorate.

    In essence, the First Past the Post voting system, with its focus on awarding victory to the candidate with the majority of votes in a given constituency, provides a reliable and democratic method for determining electoral outcomes, thereby fostering a closer approximation of democratic principles in the electoral process.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,019 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I think quite a few posters here already misunderstand what PRSTV is, and the inherent benefits and flaws alike.

    I'm happy to take suggestions from those same posters of what they would replace it with...?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,364 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    The person getting 35% of the vote can get elected, whilst 65% did not want them elected. UK shows that FPTP is crap. Most European countries are governed by coalitions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 973 ✭✭✭Hyperbollix


    Indeed. If you knew nothing about the detail, just knowing that FPTP is the system of choice for the Tory party, is enough to know it's a steaming pile of shít.



  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭redunited


    The suggestion that the First Past the Post electoral system is ludicrous is unfounded. Under this system, the majority of constituents have their favored politician represent them, and this representation extends across the country in each constituency, ultimately forming a government based on majority rule.

    The system's effectiveness lies in its adherence to the principle of majority ruling, ensuring that the government reflects the preferences of the majority of voters. Contrary to the assertion that it favors any particular political party, the reality is that governments in each country are subject to change, reflecting the dynamic nature of democratic politics. Therefore, dismissing the First Past the Post system as flawed fails to acknowledge its fundamental principle of majority representation and the fluidity of democratic governance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,399 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    OP clearly doesn't understand PRSTV in post #1, and in most recent post makes clear they have little or no understanding of FPtP either if they think it 'awards victory to the candidate with the majority of votes'. Good thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭redunited


    The Green Party secured 7.1% of the vote, yet they hold a share of power.

    Micheál Martin was elected on the 9th count with 19% of the first preferences, yet he served as Taoiseach and now as Tánaiste.

    Leo Varadkar was elected on the 5th count with 19% of the first preferences, yet he is now Taoiseach.



  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭redunited



    As evident from the example provided, the Conservatives secured the seat because the majority of voters supported a specific candidate. Conversely, other candidates failed to garner sufficient popular support.

    The notion that Liberal Democrat voters would have opted for Labour to prevent the election of a Conservative MP does not align with democratic principles; rather, it suggests political interference aimed at manipulating the electoral outcome.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    I'm not saying that is AI generated specious bullshit...

    But there's a 98% probability that this is AI generated specious bullshit ;)




  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭Yeah Right


    Anyone claiming FPTP is better or more democratic than PR-STV is only demonstrating their ignorance of both systems.

    To even further claim that FPTP is preferable because it more accurately reflects the will of the electorate is just clownshoes level thinking.

    For all its flaws, PR-STV is leagues ahead in terms of FPTP in pretty much every single metric imaginable. All the latter does is lead you down the inevitable path towards a two party system and the ingrained unfairness/anti-democratic nature of everything that follows. Just take a look at the shitshow that is the US presidential elections for an example.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Augme


    Because those larger parties asked them to join the Government and to become government ministers. A better question ask is, why should larger parties who got the majority of support from people, not be allowed form a government with the parties of their choice?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭redunited



    So your counter argument is simply to label me as a bot?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,399 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    You are coming up with some insane stuff here.

    If the Liberal and Labour candidates and voters agree on a huge amount of policy issues, then clearly the 59.3% of voters are being 'robbed' by having a Tory winner. It's a pretty obvious flaw of FPtP.

    The extreme example is if 10 centre-ist candidates all poll 9%, and one ultra-extremist candidate (left or right wing) polls 10%, then the extremist wins.

    But carry-on - the PRSTV system ain't changing anytime soon so your madness goes nowhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,807 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    Well this is a load of rubbish anyway.

    FPTP leads to stupid scenarios where your vote isn't really valuable in a bunch of seats (either you support a candidate who is absolutely going to win by a mile, or the direct opposite), it leads to issues where a big-ish party can come along and get a tonne of votes but no seats (UKIP got 12% of the vote in the 2015 UK general election and got no seats).

    Whether a TD is elected on the first count or last count doesn't really affect how legitimate or otherwise the TD is, so that's a nonsense. And this idea that people don't understand how to vote is also a nonsense, it's a simple ranking in order, nothing else.


    To show why FPTP is so bad, you can see that the Tories in the UK, who love FPTP, don't use it to vote for their own leader even (if they did FPTP David Cameron wouldn't have been leader, neither would Liz Truss).



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    I've not labelled you a bot, I have said that your post is AI generated specious bullshit. Pop that into your GPT and it will offer a response more cogent than your OP ;)



  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭redunited



    I run my posts through a spell and grammar checker. Grammar nazi!



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,807 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    That's not a majority, that's a plurality. The majority of the votes here did not vote Tory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,807 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    We don't have a presidential system, we have a parliamentary system. You vote for individuals who make up the overall parliament, who then vote for the Taoiseach based on the breakdown of TDs. The fact that a TD is voted on the first count or last count doesn't matter.

    Also, we are broken into many constituencies around the country. If we went based on a national poll only, local issues and local preferences would be ignored.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Where did I offer an opinion on your spelling or grammar? Are you saying that your spell check/grammar check amended your draft post to the extent that it is recognised as 98% probability of AI authorship?

    You'd best share the name of the software so any students on here can know what to avoid, imagine if scribbr, Grammarly or any of the other tools generated a false positive of 98%?



  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭redunited


    Why are you checking my posts anyhow? Is your life so boring that you check other posters' posts for AI content instead of replying to the topic?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭Yeah Right


    This is like foundation level politics.........

    38.3% is not a majority, it is a plurality

    The remaining people....aka.....everyone who didn't vote Tory.......make up 62.2%, which IS A QUALIFIED MAJORITY

    The majority of the people are being ignored because the system is set up in an undemocratic way.

    Your last line is astonishingly lacking in self awareness. It is far, far easier to manipulate the electorate or interfere with your opponents in a FPTP system.

    Here's a scenario:

    Imagine you live in a town where there's a proposal to build a piggery right beside the school. 66% of the town don't want it, while 34% do want it and you have two politicians campaigning along those lines (one who does and one who doesn't). If you were the person who wants it, you're most likely gonna lose the vote. So you ask your mate to run on a campaign of "well, okay, we do want it but it has to be a sheep farm instead of pigs" and another to run on "okay, a pig farm is fine, but the operating hours must be X until Y" and a third mate to run on "we'll build the farm but it has to be away from the school".

    If those three mates take 11% of voters away from the no side each, the 34% wins and the will of the people is subverted.



This discussion has been closed.
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