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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,581 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Botha does not ref matches! His opinions are just that, opinions. Whatever is going on with Porter's scrum technique, it still has not being addressed. The refs make decisions rightly or wrongly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,581 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Healy is a better scrummager at 36 years old! Is this perception by the refs? Or is Healy just that good?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    A bit of both.

    Referees in general don't have a clue what's going on in the scrum and they base their decisions entirely off very narrow interpretations of the "picture" they are presented with , there is also a significant element of reputation layered on top.

    They don't tend to actually view each scrum as an independent unique event , which is exactly what they are.

    So a player with a perceived issue will tend to come out the wrong side of the decision more often that the facts should dictate.

    The same happens at the macro level , if a team is perceived to have a particularly strong/weak scrum overall , the referees will tend to factor that into the decision making process, so South Africa get away with all kinds of stuff at the scrum because the perception is that their scrum is really strong so they would have no reason to collapse or wheel etc.

    It's human nature , but it doesn't make the decision any less incorrect.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,581 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    It's dismaying that scrums are managed and judged by an assortment of individual referees. At this stage, Porter if pre judged is fecked. He can't buy a decision. I reckon the fault lays at Porters feet? He's responsible for his technique and his faults.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    There's definitely a need for a "rebranding" as it were and working with the referees offline to show the issues and where the misconceptions are occurring.

    Sharing the analysis like the ones done by Botha/Corbisiero would be a good start.

    To be honest , Referees should be sat down with guys like that and go through about 100 scrums on Video with those guys explaining all the nuance of what is happening.

    Also , the point made by Botha in his review of the France game about the overhead camera view is an interesting one - Should the TMO be used to watch that viewpoint during the scrums to give the ref further insight into what's happening?

    In the example Botha gave , the ref was on the far side of the scrum and the AR was 40m+ away on Porters side when they penalised him for turning in when the top down view shows it was clearly Atonio that caused the issue.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,581 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Yes! There should be more observation of the scrum. Perhaps using the Hawkeye.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,490 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    This feels like such an obvious idea. The TMO could have 3 views of the scrum, and call in to the ref if he sees a clear infraction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,581 ✭✭✭Dubinusa




  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    To me - there's something very interesting in all of this, coupled with the South African's announcement this week of Jaco Peyper's role in their coaching staff.

    Is his role limited to just teaching the squad about particular rule changes etc, or is it unreasonable to assume he'll be liaising with some of his former colleagues to re-align perceptions or try and change opinions on areas where the Springboks feel they're being hard done by?

    They'd deny the latter, but to me it's not remotely unreasonable to assume they'll at least attempt some of this, and it's up to the individual referees to decline those kind of overtures. More likely to happen if he's friendly with a lot of still current referees though.

    The scrum you highlighted here was one of the most frustrating decisions in the game, because Dickson gave it almost instantaneously when he absolutely couldn't have seen anything definitive from where he or his AR were standing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 205 ✭✭Billy_the_Kid
    Master


    A 'scrum ref' on TMO who knows what hes doing would be great



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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,644 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    i dunno, peyper is certainly not the first ref to be appointed as a coach to a team.

    similar to peyper, Glen Jackson joined the Fiji coaching staff to focus on RWC 23, much more to explain to the fijians the actual laws than to change any preconceptions the world referees had against them.

    Jerome Garces joined the french coaching squad to focus the players on discipline issue they had been suffering themselves.

    interestingly teh bokke were looking to get Nigel Owens involved with their coaching staff for RWC 23, but owens couldn't take up the offer due to his commitments training the refs for the RWC itself.

    id imagine any professional referee that takes informal queries or influence from Peyper, would be running the risk of severe reprimand. The referees see themselves as a stand alone 'team' where they are all teammates. One thing refs are not shy on doing is talking, and i would imagine any attempted unofficial communication by a member of staff of a national team would be made aware between them

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭conquestscarer


    Antonio has fallen off a cliff as a scrummager and gets special treatment off of referees who still ref him as if he is the best in the world. Multiple times in the La Rochelle match he would go to kill Porter on the hit and if he didn't get what he wanted would push forwards and belly flop while Porter stood up. The same thing happened on Saturday on that scrum where he went for a belly flop because he didn't like what the hit gave him. Frustrating that Referees give him special treatment and wouldn't be surprised if someone pings him off the park.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Is his role limited to just teaching the squad about particular rule changes etc, or is it unreasonable to assume he'll be liaising with some of his former colleagues to re-align perceptions or try and change opinions on areas where the Springboks feel they're being hard done by?

    Personally, I think it's pretty unreasonable and a pretty unfair suggestion that the ref's in question would be open to / able to be influenced in this manner, tbh.

    Referees are professionals too, they don't want to go out and make mistakes any more than players do.

    Trying to exert influence on a ref on the field is one thing, but this suggestion about Peyper liaising with them behind closed doors in an effort to re-align perceptions / change opinions sounds more than a little shady to me, and I'd suggest all of the elite level ref's wouldn't entertain it.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,490 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Yea, he's always at it. Spends more time on his belly than a soldier getting shelled



  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    Ah come on - it's quite clear from a number of books, interviews & comments from people who were involved in the game that conversations happen behind closed doors all the time, and the notion that the South Africans (a rugby nation who are notorious for doping and other forms of alleged cheating over the years) would be completely above such shenanigans is a bit rich.

    The description of his role is to help the players "understand the referees and their interpretation of the laws", so he'll already presumably be using some of his experience from refereeing alongside other current referees (i.e. saying things like Matthieu is vocal on how strict he is on guys in at the side at rucks" etc), so it's hardly that much of a stretch to assume that if they had a similar situation to what we currently have with Andrew Porter where a lot of Irish players, coaches and fans believe he's being refereed unfairly, that if South Africa found themselves in a similar situation that Peyper would, as a member of their coaching ticket, reach out to referees to try and argue the case for his player.

    Your post is overly naive IMO - the South Africans are a great side, but they're both incredibly innovative and incredibly cynical historically, so whilst lots of nations have a history of sometimes having ex-refs in "coaching" roles, I don't think it's at all some fanciful notion that a little part of Peyper's role will be trying to get the inside line on ref's current thought processes and possibly some influence peddling.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You've missed my point. Maybe SA and Peyper are open to trying such shenanigans.

    I'm not at all convinced the referee's are open to entertaining them.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    Yeah, and I'm obviously not suggesting any referees necessarily will be receptive to him. But at the very least, the announcements about his appointment indicate that they're going to be using him through normal channels for this kind of work, and even in that regard his personal relationships with some of the referees involved and the respect they presumably have for him will likely help in their efforts.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,644 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    But at the very least, the announcements about his appointment indicate that they're going to be using him through normal channels for this kind of work

    thats a pretty extreme statement to be honest.


    as i said above, its not a new thing for a ref to be appointed to a national test coaching staff.

    Were there suggestions that france and fiji were appointing refs to get nefarious influence on their game referees?


    i think the referee team are professional enough to prevent that from happening, and i cant actually recall any incident in the past of a retired referee having any influence on current refs. its very much a "when your out your out" career, especially in today climate of some referees being fully professional.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    But at the very least, the announcements about his appointment indicate that they're going to be using him through normal channels

    I'd argue that what you're suggesting is not "normal channels" tho.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    I don't think it is extreme - there's a story which won't allow me to link here from iol.co.za which outlines the type of role he's expected to have now in the SA coaching ticket, and it clearly states the following:

    Peyper commanded a lot of respect on the field and as one of World Rugby’s elite referees of the last two World Cups, he brings with him excellent relationships with plenty of match officials around the world.

    Most importantly, though, thanks to his spotless relationship with World Rugby, he will be able to take any concern of Erasmus and the Boks to the governing body’s match officials panel before and after matches, knowing which channels to work through directly.

    Like, I think it's legitimately naive to think he's not attempting to use influence and relationships to help the Springboks relationships with referees. I'm not suggesting it's anything incredibly overt or as nefarious as you seem to think I'm suggesting, but there's a reason they go out and get a guy like him and put him on the payroll as part of their coaching ticket.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭nerd69


    Porter definitely has a bad rep at this stage but hes also still scrummaging poorly tbh. You cant just dismiss all refs and take bothas word as gospel. Hes invaluable to us around the pitch so worth his spot but hes not a good scrummager



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,581 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Depends on the salary? Peyper imo, is a very poor official and the notion that S.A would entertain his advice, is strange to me.

    All round though, reffing is generally poor, imo. Are these officials all trained the laws and how to interpret them, at the same school? If so, how come there's so much disparity in the application of the laws? Furthermore, the AR's seem to all be low key and in my opinion, are just fellas that hang out on the sidelines! Honestly, you'd wonder if some of these officials are blind.

    Just thinking of unions paying officials to get input, serves little purpose. Each ref has their own interpretation and referral, they read different pages from the same book. Officiating is very poor. Sometimes it's shocking. There's little benifit to gain one refs opinion, when there's no consistency amongst the refs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,545 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I think the Molecast made the best comments on Peyper, they said Peyper is a ref who decides before the game who should win the game and is biased. So in most games he automatically think NZ will win or XYZ will win. So any sort of decision he will make based on the idea that team A is better than team B and should win, so they should get benefit of doubt. They said this prior to the NZ series or even way before that. But it showed up in that game when he was apologising to the NZ player for sending him off.

    If you think back over the years with this idea it explains a little better why some people think he is a bad ref. Both Leinster & Ireland have got the benefit of this over the years but of course we have got the other side of it.

    Good SA ref's are hard to find so Peyper is probably the top one to bring in from a SA point of view, it's not like they can be seen to hire a overseas ref as that would be problematic I would expect.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    To be honest, this seems about on the same level as suggesting the IRFU have special access and influence on WR cause it's based in Dublin.

    Having an ex-ref on the payroll is not a new idea, and for a brief period of time at least he will have a good insight into what WR are pushing refs to look for.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,545 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    France have a ref on books, so do England I think, the 42 done an interview before with an Irish ref and the question was asked and he said they engage with the Irish management.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Correct. And nobody suggested that those countries hired those refs, at least in part, because their relationship to, and liaising, with other refs could lead to more favourable decisions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,383 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Not that I'm subscribing to the theory in the slightest, but those countries and coaches don't have the reputation South Africa and their current coaches have, given most people wouldn't trust them as far as they could throw them and for good reason.



  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    No, it’s actually not remotely similar to that example at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,103 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Of course the officials work extensively on the laws and interpretations. All refs get on going training through the season and pro refs get assessed each game. All refs will interpret certain laes differently. Impossible not to. Especially the way some laws are writtej. Theyre completely open to interpretation.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It's equally ridiculous and absolutely has similarities (using relationships and closeness). And it is a complaint that has been levelled at Irish rugby by others in the past.

    I think they put him on the payroll to get a ref's view of how to approach games. The same way several other teams do. You are looking for an underhanded element that just isn't there.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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