Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

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Even though I 100% support Israel's right to defend itself it is quite clear that Israel have been idiots throughout this recent chapter of this conflict it's also been quite clear that there is a percentage of Israeli's who appear to have a degree of glee over what is happening which is quite scummy just as the glee over the October 7th attacks was quite scummy as well. I think Israel's response has been disproportionate just like the bombing of Dresden and the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were disproportionate.

They have been played like a fiddle by Hamas and the arab world.Hamas do not care about the Palestinian people one bit and are using them essentially as human shields so they can push the Evil Israeli's idea and gain sympathy world wide for  the Palestinian issue and islamic issues in general.Israel have done exactly what Hamas hoped they would and have effectively in the eyes of a lot of the world turned Israel into the bad guys.

If they want to get rid of Hamas and solve this situation once and for all they need to kill them with kindness and have killed Hamas leaders , cut the head off the snake and then went in took over Gaza and improved the lives of the Palestinians to the point where they realise how much Hamas was holding them back.People generally only need religious fundamentalism when their lives are so bad they have nothing else to hope for in life, improve the lives of the Palestinians under Israeli control add you'd play a part in eradicating Hamas and islamic fundamentalism.

All Israel's actions have achieved is to radicalise another generation of young Palestinians and young arabs and muslims against Israel.

Important points; Hamas could end this conflict tomorrow, by surrendering. Their objective, however, isn't winning anything - just killing. They don't have any traditional 'war' objectives - if they did, you'd have expected them to sue for peace by now.

But, they'd rather sacrifice their fellow Gazans, they don't value Gazan lives. Remember they steal aid, too, as that brave Gazan grandmother said to Al Jazeera.

And they have tonnes of support, like Iran, and the Houthis.

Jack

A fair bit to agree with in this.

Fairly scary that according to the IT article, Israel had declared UNWRA HQ in Gaza clear only to be told by Palestinians to go back and dig down to find the infrastructure below ground. It could take a long time to root all such infrastructure out.

"Up there" as you put it (nice bit of "othering" going on there I see) is where I grew up, and I can tell you that the IRA did nothing to help ordinary nationalists, and also that Gaza is a warning lesson for how life might have been in Northern Ireland if we had given electoral power to the IRA to run the place into the ground in the name of "destroying the British Empire".

Of course that never happened, because Sinn Fein never had a mandate to use the Northern Ireland economy in its "war effort" to kill random protestant women and children just for being protestant. There is no equivalent to October 7th in the Northern Ireland troubles, and ordinary nationalists would not have accepted that being done in their name.

It's ironic to see people from the south where they were all grand with Section 31 at the time, and accused John Hume of "betrayal" for trying to get peace by talking to the IRA, now going hook line and sinker for the exact opposite position, portraying the IRA as some sort of civil rights supporters.

They weren't, and nothing they did ever got civil rights for nationalists. It was the peace marches that did that. The IRA was wholly counterproductive in terms of the quality of life for ordinary nationalists. Like Hamas has destroyed life in Gaza. But at least we never had war crimes against babies being committed in our name.

Every American adminstration (and Congress) has been an unwavering supporter of Israel. We should hardly be surprised by this.

Has there ever been a 'democratic Palestine'? I don't believe so.

Although democracy isn't a concept that has ever really caught on the Middle East. Africa and Asia have been more enthusiastic adopters than the Arab world.

It's an interesting hypothetical though. Imagine if you will that Israel dismantled all illegal settlements in the West Bank and withdrew to the 1967 borders. What form of government would be established in Palestine?

As opposed to Hamas, which literally means "Islamic Resistance", and which celebrated winning the only elections ever held in Gaza by killing its Palestinian opponents. I don't think they're going to be interested in establishing a democracy, do you?

Again - and I seriously can't tell at this stage if you actually can't understand it or not -such structures only arise and persist because of the environment that people are in.

In the case of Palestine, their conditions were created and are controlled by Israel.

It's not a war. It's a massacre. A war involves 2 sides fighting

Hamas were effectively created by Israel when they took out the PLO who, while corrupt, were at least holding elections

I didn't say any such thing and I'm sure you have the grace to recognise that. I'm here to debate in good faith, not to have statements imputed to me.

You may have noticed that I had already edited the post to say "One cannot say". A few seconds after posting it. Because I meant the general "you".

You can check the timestamps on the post to verify. If I had edited it subsequently, it would "edited".

Thank you.