Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Those IDF soldiers are a disgrace.

They are as bad as those Hamas members who mocked the hostages with food, outlined earlier by another poster.

And I can guarantee you Donald, that if there was the same religious driven hate in the North that exists in the middle east, the " Troubles" would still be ongoing. And that's the difference.

FT reporting two hostages rescued from Rafah this morning. Three Hamas killed plus around 50 Palestinian civilians killed overnight.

What peace? The peace of being blockaded for decades? Having land taken away constantly? Internment without trial? Laws passed in government consigning any Israeli Arab to second citizen status, that peace?

How many is that now.

3.

Great to see hostages freed bit I wouldn't consider somewhere in the region of 30k dead, mostly innocent children and women a "Super Result!". AFP reporting close to 100 killed last night alone.

Is that the value of thoses 3 hostages lives?

Of course a better result would be all hostages freed and Hamas/Palestine surrenders.

If one of my family was held hostage I would want everything done to get them released. I wouldn’t be too bothered about the methods used.

Strange that you are from there if you never heard of the civil rights protests. Did some other "Nationalists" up there perhaps consider them to be just whingers? Here are some starts from wikipedia as an easy starting place

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Civil_Rights_Association

Below is an article looking at some of the areas which are still deprived.

Here is an article from last year with the silly notion of riots being rooted in poverty and deprivation

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/derry-strabane-riots-deprivation-northern-ireland-good-friday-agreement/

Here is another report for you which states (amongst other things):

https://www.ulster.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/410227/A-Review-Addressing-Sectarianism-in-Northern-Ireland_FINAL.pdf

"Poverty" and "deprivation" does not have to be absolute. A systemic unfairness and bias will drive resentment and anger.

Ultimately, given that you disagree that poverty and deprivation contribute to the ease at which people are attracted into extreme positions, I'd be interested to hear your reasons as to why paramilitaries would have had much more support up North than in the Republic say 30 years ago. Why is support in NI less now than it would have been 30 years ago? If it wasn't environmental, was it perhaps genetic? That wouldn't make sense to me, but feel free to enlighten us, and we can see if that same reason is relevant to other conflicts such as those in the Middle East

If you want to claim there is no relevance between the places, then you are free to do that. I already posted the photographs of two groups of civilians, each one holding a white flag, trying to get away from a sniper, and carrying a victim who is bleeding and has been shot by the sniper. One in Gaza and one from Derry. Claiming one is ok and the other is not would involve a degree of cognitive dissonance that I do not possess.

Nobody is suggesting that money be thrown at Palestinians. But they should be allowed to have a chance at controlling their own future and they should be allowed to have reasonable and realistic hopes and dreams. If you condemn them to nothing but a slow death in a massive open air prison camp, then don't be surprised if they want to bite you back.

I am. But you have to see the other side of it too. And these people were killed as a diversion

https://x.com/GUnderground_TV/status/1756956891970707674?s=20

If someone in Hamas was to take an extreme sociopathic view on the situation, at this stage they might conclude that murdering the hostages could save Palestinian civilian lives.

It shouldn't have to be said - but I'm not saying they should. Just pointing out the reality of the situation.

LOL I grew up there. I bet you don't even know basic stuff like who "the faceless men" were? (Hint, it's from before the troubles, and has nothing to do with paramilitaries, but is about the systemic discrimination that nationalists suffered.) I'm under no illusions about Northern Ireland.

But I've also travelled since then, to Mongolia and Ecuador and a couple of other places where people are genuinely poor.

And secondly, if you knew anything at all about it, you'd know that the IRA and violent protest generally, got NOTHING for the nationalist community. That's a rewriting by Sinn Fein and eejits who - as I said before - were perfectly happy to go along with the previous groupthink about Northern Ireland, about the need for Section 31 for example, are now equally ready to unthinkingly swallow the narrative that says that the IRA was an inevitable outpouring of nationalist pain. It wasn't.

This is not the thread for a detailed discussion of the NI conflict, so I'm aware I'm off topic but it'w important when you keep bringing this in. I'll just suggest you look at the timelines of what really happened: for instance all the major civil rights gains - one man one vote, fair housing, anti-discrimination laws in the workplace - were all accepted well before the IRA and violent protest became a thing. Those rights were either being set up or were already in place, depending on how complex the changes required were.

The IRA then jumped on the bandwagon, aided by a number of errors by the British government, mostly caused by the fact that when Labour lost to the Tories in 1970, the Tories wanted to "do things differently" to Labour, and took an openly pro-loyalist and pro-police approach.

But the IRA themselves were never about civil rights. Peaceful protest by NICRO got those for us. The IRA caused more damage to nationalists, in all sorts of ways (including wrecking the economy and eliminating tourism for 20+years) as well as the consequence of having the British Army all over the place.

But you know, I'm old to remember - just - when the army arrived, and people were so happy and relieved to see them. They were coming to save us from the B Specials. Why it all went wrong after is an interesting point - see my point about the Tories above, but it's more complicated than that - and does, despite my main argument here - also have lessons for understanding why the IDF are so brutal to Palestinian civilians.

Took me years to understand that, BTW, so I get why you, from outside, don't get it. The simplistic "us versus them" is so much easier to (think you) understand.

(I see you've even quoted the NICRO link - WTF did they have to do with violent protest?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Civil_Rights_Association

As for your Open Democracy link - the reality is that the riots are very like the Dublin riots a couple of months ago. A woman I know well whose 14 year old son was arrested (in NI, not Dublin) actually said to me "Sure what else do the young ones have to do around here?" Like FFS? It's called PARENTING. And as for the claim that they have nothing to do? Utter sh1te.

The Netherlands have announced that they will no longer deliver parts for the F-35 fighter jets.

"Court orders Netherlands to halt delivery of fighter jet parts to Israel

The court noted a clear risk that the parts are being used in ‘serious violations of international humanitarian law’."

Wasn't that moment of opportunity Oslo? (amazing to think that was nearly 30 years ago now)

Or the oft-forgotten Olmert accords in 2008? When Olmert basically offered to remove almost all the West Bank settlements.

There have been opportunities for peace. Some of them have even been taken, such as the Camp David Accords or the Israel-Jordan Treaty.

But relitigating the past seems somewhat pointless....it's happened. What the players have to do, somehow, is find a path forward. Right now, there seems no willingness on either side to do so. So that's where the international power brokers should be stepping in.

More israeli scumbaggery

Israel told Palestinians to move south where they would be safe, Israel last night Bombed a refugee camp (there's probably a Hamas command center under those tents or something) killing and wounding hundreds.

Its genocide.