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"average Dublin house prices should fall to ‘the €300,000 mark" according to Many Lou McD.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,473 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Where did all those houses disappear to? If I look out the window there still seems to be plenty of houses in Ballybrack?

    "people who have the wealth to live elsewhere"? People who have wealth live wherever they want...thats kinda the point.

    Where do the thousands of new houses in Ballybrack go exactly? Maybe pave over Kilbogget park?

    Its almost as if there is more demand now than there was back then yet the size of the country hasnt grown.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    70/80

    Generally, positive net migration can be observed in the 1970s with a peak of 20,000 people coming to Ireland in 1975. Over the 1970s cumulative positive net migration was just under 100,000 people indicating 100,000 more people arriving than leaving. A declining trend can be observed from the peak onwards to 1989. The 1980s were dominated with negative net migration, with more than 185,000 more people leaving than arriving in the 1980s.

    1990's

    An upturn in the net migration trend begins in 1990, however negative net migration can still be observed in all years (aside from 1992) until 1996. The remaining years of the 1990s show positive net migration. In the earlier half of the 1990s (1990 – 1994), there was negative net migration of 22,600 which indicates that approximately 23,000 more people departed the State than arrived. Positive net migration starts in 1996 and in the latter half of the decade (1995 – 1999), Ireland had positive net migration of 60,000 more people arriving than leaving.

    The upturn happened with the Celtic Tiger.

    I also provided the unemployment rates I could find back as far as I could find......

    Screenshot 2024-02-12 at 17.46.02.png




  • Posts: 577 ✭✭✭ Cali Screeching Prince


    The price could go up no more than the inflation rate. The price could fall however as much, I guess whatever it would sell for. To determine the initial sale price, an evaluation could be done. And to determine who gets the house, could be done on pratiacal needs i.e. a local working family.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,328 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    You cant price cap a house.

    It is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Just like eveything else.

    The only way to succesfully bring the prices down, without crashing the economy, is to build a lot more of them.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    She truly means 270k. Htb is plus 30k to anything it costs or is deemed to be minimum selling price. Builders will claim HTB as profits



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Because think about it...could Ireland let alone the world support everybody as a council worker with 10 kids each with free gaffs.



  • Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Actually, when I bought a commercial property in 07/08, the bank offered me 110% of the purchase price to cover stamp duty and legal costs. I didn’t ask for it, nor did I avail of it, but they did offer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    That's commercial properties. Different to a mortgage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Maybe it did, 100% was crazy at the time as well. By the time 100% mortgage came on the scene the house price was already high because of the jobs in Ireland. As I showed above the number of people leaving ireland, returning to Ireland and unemployment dropped all came around at the start of the Celtic Tiger and that was the increase. 100% only came around 2005/2006 and the crash was 2008.

    See below, the major house price increases happened long before 100% mortgages


    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It was a mortgage on a commercial property, I suppose the pertinent points are, the bank did offer a 110% loan, and I didn’t request it. I can’t have been the only one.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,103 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I do recall someone mentioning to me around that time that they got a mortgage bigger than 100% to cover furniture, fittings etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I guess around 2005/2006 based on the 100% announced in 2005. As above the house price was already raised at that stage so they might of had a small push up but on a market that was already high



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Crazy sh*t if they took it out. Then people blame the government and everyone else for the crash, f**king ridiculous and people need to take some responsibility



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭hometruths


    It is worth what somebody is willing and able to pay for it. Just like everything else.

    If you increase what somebody is able to pay, whether by increased wages, loose credit or indeed government supports like HTB and shared equity then the price will rise.

    Thus obviously if you remove those government supports then the price will fall.

    So it is possible to successfully bring prices down without crash the economy.

    It's unlikely to happen. But the reasons for that are political, not economic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,537 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Technically, I understand that the banks were offering mortgages up to 95% of the value of the property, and then also offering unsecured personal loans for another 5-15% for furnishings/fittings etc.

    That gave the total borrowings of up to 110% - but deniability that the mortgage technically was only for 95% - when the reality was that the full loan value was indeed 110%



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,328 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    A lot of people in the Dublin area can afford to pay a lot more than 300k for a house.

    Govt supports or no Govt supports.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭DataDude


    I can see arguments for and against HTB and whilst it is of course inflationary in nature, I think its impact is likely to be somewhat overblown by many. Like as if it was removed the market would crash.

    Stats suggest it’s only used in roughly 10% of purchases. It’s also been made largely redundant in the more expensive areas except for 1 and 2 bed apartments due to the €500k price cap.

    So in pretty much all of Dublin & Wicklow (probably Kildare/Meath too) every new build 3bed terraced house and above is still being snapped up in no time at all without any incentives at all. There is no shortage of ‘real’ demand and people able to pay current prices.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Thus obviously if you remove those government supports then the price will fall.

    This assumes that the only thing keeping prices at their current level is government support. That absolutely isn't the case.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭hometruths


    I wasn't aware it was as low as 10%, is that 10% of FTB transactions or 10% of new build sales?

    I take your point re the redundancy of the supports in more expensive areas. But a presumably related fact is that yet another characteristic of our market that makes Ireland an outlier is the relative affordability of the cheapest areas of Dublin vs the most expensive.

    I suspect this is largely driven by the government supports at the lower levels of the market both in sales and rents.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Personally I'd like to see the bulk of the supports in the rental market withdrawn as well. They're certainly doing their bit to push prices high.

    Between all the differnet subisdies and supports the government is pumping billions into the property market every year, and that figure rises annually as prices continue to rise.

    Of course you can argue it is essential for society, but it's naive to think the effect of all this government money is not pushing prices higher.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,328 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Well said, the impact of HTB, especially in Greater Dublin is massivley overstated.

    People can, and are, paying way over 300k for a home, unaided by the govt & with ease.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,328 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Where would all the middle income and social housing renters rent, if the subsidies are removed?

    The private market can afford 2,400pm for a 2 bed apartment in South Dublin. There arent enough of them.

    If you remove the subsidies the landlord isnt going to accept 800PM from someone on the social, they are going to rent exclusivley to the private market.

    The govt doesnt have homes of its own to house these folks, so they have no choice but to pay market rate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭DataDude


    10% of overall transactions was my rough estimate so yes higher for new build percentage. Probably more like 20% (6/7k out of 35k new builds).

    On your second point - is it that you think the ‘worst’ parts of Dublin should show bigger price differentials to the ‘best’. I.e. Dalkey should be more than twice the average price of Tallaght or whatever the actual figures are?

    Not sure how we compare to other countries in that regard but if I’m interpreting you correctly, I’d say you could be right in that subsidies are more concentrated in cheaper areas for both rent and purchase and therefore have a greater inflationary impact there.

    Nonetheless I do think it’s telling as to the strength of ‘real demand’ that the most expensive areas are holding up strongly without much gov intervention.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭DataDude


    Just out of interest I checked 2022.

    €22.5bn total value of transactions. €180m total value of HTB.

    0.8% of total spend coming from HTB. 99.2% coming from cash, mortgages etc.

    I really don’t think it can be fundamentally changing the market in the way people seem to think.

    I think there is a greater argument that HAP spend is distorting rental markets significantly and having knock on consequences on values due to inflated rental yields.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭hometruths


    It would be interesting to know the % regarding new builds that are actually on the open market. I'd say it is quite high.

    On your second point - is it that you think the ‘worst’ parts of Dublin should show bigger price differentials to the ‘best’. I.e. Dalkey should be more than twice the average price of Tallaght or whatever the actual figures are?

    Yes, exactly that. I read an article about it, will try and find it again. It was quite interesting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    But a presumably related fact is that yet another characteristic of our market that makes Ireland an outlier is the relative affordability of the cheapest areas of Dublin vs the most expensive.

    In what way is Ireland an outlier? The increasing gap between supply and demand, and between salaries and house prices is a global phenomenon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭Cheddar Bob


    Infill on the over abundance of green spaces in the 70s/ 80s built council housing?

    So you clearly think that the social cleansing of the area is a good thing.


    Perhaps in 30 years those areas can be tossed and replaced with aesthetics that are more in keeping with the locale than looking like somewhere children used to ride horses through.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭Blut2


    Theres more than just HTB that the government is doing on the supply side though - things like the First Home Scheme etc.

    That aside removing HAP and getting those 60,000 odd households out of the private rental market and into social housing would have massively more of an impact though, and save the state a fortune while we're at it, yeah. But thats going to require the building/obtaining of large numbers of social housing units after the problem was ignored and let fester for the last decade or so. Its not instant, it'll require more of a 3-5 year plan.

    Removing the supply side schemes could be done almost instantly, in contrast. So it might be a much smaller effect, but it at least it would be much sooner.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Dublin is an outlier compared to other cities when the relative price of the cheapest areas of the city compared to most expensive areas of the city is considered.

    I cannot remember the exact figures, and unfortunately I cannot find the article I where I read about it but in other cities you might expect the average house in the most expensive part of town to cost 5 times (or whatever the norm is) the average house in the cheapest part of town. In Dublin it is lower than the norm eg 3 times.

    I'm not suggesting Ireland is an outlier in having rising prices.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,473 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I honestly have no clue what you are try to say or imply here.

    So your idea is to cram those pesky poor people in tighter? Nice.



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