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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    What's the question gusser?

    I went back thought that was it

    Maybe just post it would simplify matters



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    I think Gus is mistaken when he states that it's in the DPP's report that the briars were sent off to England to be examined in a forensic laboratory.

    I could be wrong of course but he provided a quote from the DPP's report that didn't back up his story in the slightest and then on top of it he hasn't answered me back when I asked him where he conjured up the last quote from.

    The briars would have been about 5 years old at the time he claims they were sent to England.

    Something just doesn't add up but it's been a long tough day for Gus.

    Tommorrow is another day.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    It is if you are the named prime suspect. Its not if you are guilty, but you aren't a suspect.

    Why on earth would you want to reopen a case that could potentially lead to your door?

    Cue some illogical theory from someone.

    In any case, for Daniel to be guilty it would also likely have been a contract killing by a person with a rock and a block. This has been discounted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    OK, just once more.

    I contend that had Bailey scratched his hands on the briars at Sophies gate, he would have left forensic traces on the briars.

    Do you dispute that contention?



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,181 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    There is no proof of Bailey at the scene despite the briars being tested. Not a speck of Sophies blood found on the multiple items of Baileys clothing tested despite the Guards lying and saying they didnt test his coat - then "losing" the coat.

    Bailey voluntarily provided hair and blood samples. If he was the murderer and scratched at the scene why would he do this? How could he know he left no hairs? No blood? No saliva? Game over if anything found matching him.

    Sophies DNA was found at the scene on the briars tested. Sophies DNA was found on the blood tested on the door. How would a lack of due diligence explain that?

    The only unaccounted for DNA found at the scene is a male sample on Sophies boot that does not match Baileys profile.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    No idea I don't be hanging off Gus every word

    Lack of DNA on the briars is no proof of anything here imo


    I posted before Bailey was a smart cookie

    I reckon he knew a public enquiry would work in his favor

    Lack of evidence, Garda shenanigans, Marie Farrell, DPP etc , that would only go one way

    Baileys way



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,717 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    We don't know when he wrote the article, we do know Jules saw it on the kitchen table in the morning.

    It was 5pm on Mon by the time it was eventually filed,



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,181 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It is certainly no proof against Bailey.

    Which is the point of the question from GS you keep dodging.

    So no forensics. And the only witness putting Bailey anywhere near the scene Marie Farrell entirely discredited.

    So when you remove those the flimsy case against Bailey is even more threadbare.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    Yes that's an odd opinion from the DPP. The murderer appeared not to be scratched at the scene and no evidence could be found for this.

    So the scratches have always been a red herring, except for the gardai. They've always been contentious and the gardai should not have based anything on them, this was a mistake by them.

    Because Bailey wasn't scratched at the scene, it doesn't automatically mean he wasn't the murderer. I would say more relevant is his self incrimination, lies, inconsistencies, false alibis and burning items in a bonfire soon after the murder. Also the playing out of the murder scenario with Fuller. And apparently a knowledge of the murder despite complaining the gardai weren't saying anything, and which other journalists didn't have. And a few bits more too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    All we have points to bailey

    There's Alfie I suppose the bandaged hand and drove to dump didn't get on with Sophie apparently

    The husband may have stood to gain if divorcing

    Not much else



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    This testing of clothes would have been carried out long after the bonfire, and we simply do not know what was burned in that bonfire. Its highly unlikely Bailey or any murderer was foolish enough to hand over to the gardai clothes relating to the crime scene or not disposed of them soon after the murder.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,181 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Thats why imo all we have suggests the answer lies elsewhere with person or persons unknown.

    There is no real direct evidence against Bailey, Alfie, Daniel or say Karl Heinz Wolney.

    As has been done on this thread, we can build a speculative, circumstantial case for each of them based on motive or opportunity or lack of alibi. Bring a suspicious eye to their conduct or past history. But all of it is weak.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,181 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    So why did the Guards test so much of Baileys clothing?

    The Guards lied about not taking in Baileys jacket then "lost" it.

    Nobody reports Bailey suddenly wearing new jacket / coat yet all eyes were on him.

    It doesnt add up does it.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    We have Jules word for that. And she was wrong about other aspects of his alibi. Fact is she never actually saw him write the article.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    Yes those appear to be the 3 suspects people keep returning to, and not much else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 761 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    Regarding the lack of forensics belonging to the killer the main issue is likely pure happenstance caused by the location and nature of the crime along with improper/inadequate sampling allied with less sensitive analytical techniques. The crime took place at night (or vey early morning), outside, in late December. Due to the cold weather the killer was likely fairly bundled up, perhaps even a hat and gloves, which would have immediately limited the potential for skin and hair transfer for DNA profiling along with lack of fingerprint traces. The killing took place outside and the body was in situ for roughly 24 hours before examination in what I imagine is fairly damp and breezy weather. This would have contributed to degradation of any samples present. The weapons used would have made sampling difficult. There is speculation an object such as a poker may have been used , but this has never been identified. It appears rocks may have been used to smash Sophie's head. Rocks wouldn't be an ideal surface to either get traces of fingerprints (if killer wasn't wearing gloves) or hold DNA traces very well. Other nearby material such as earth or plant material such as briars are not ideal vectors for sampling.


    In relation to taking swabs for analysis there is also the difficulty for the crime scene investigators to choose what to swab. Sophie suffered a violet death, with her blood spread about. When trying to choose a likely surface with DNA it is (and indeed was) much easier to find surfaces/objects with her DNA rather than the killer, which makes sense when you think about the murderer being bundled up and using objects to hurt her, thus displacing very little skin/hair/blood relative to the victim. Analytical techniques weren't as sophisticated then as now, I'm not certain whether it was possible to even parse out mixed DNA profiles back then.


    Due to this the lack of Bailey's DNA at the scene is not evidence of his innocence as DNA of no one besides Sophie's has been identified at the scene thus far.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,181 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    In the reports I've read, they deliberately picked vegetation (e.g. briars) without obvious bloodstaining to check for DNA, to avoid splatter type contamination. And of 5/6 samples they picked up Sophie's DNA. No others.

    The picked up DNA sample from the boot and could identify that it was not Sophie's, male and not Baileys.

    They picked up speck of blood from the door and could match it to Sophie.

    If the assailant was wrapped up such as that and protected from cuts, that speaks against them being scratched at the scene.

    In the Garda scenario for Bailey, the attack is supposed to have happened in some sort of drunken, frenzied rage. Not someone in a 'forensically aware' state of mind.

    Therefore what is proof of Bailey's innocence, or points away from his guilt as per the AGS case is that he was not scratched at the scene. So basically that is one of the main planks of the Garda case gone. Marie Farrell, another main plank, totally discredited.

    And further, what is evidence of Bailey's innocence, as the DPP calls out:

    If Bailey had murdered Sophie, he would have known that there was a definite possibility of forensic evidence such as blood, fibres, hair or skin tissue being discovered at the scene. His voluntary provision of fingerprints and a specimen of his blood is objectively indicative of innocence.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Near enough the pint I've been making on the DPP report first paragraph



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Morning Gus and Happy Valentines Day.

    When you get a chance and in your own good time, you might just clarify that the above post you provided is (or is not) from the DPP's report.

    No panic if you're too busy with your loved one today and tonight, totally understand that.

    Take your time, there's no hurry.

    The man who made time made plenty of it.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭easy peasy


    Likewise you might please clarify where your certainty that Sophie and Daniel were happily married and weren’t getting a divorce comes from.

    Use of external sources may be helpful.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,181 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    This is also in the DPP report first paragraph, the conclusion to it:

    If Bailey had murdered Sophie, he would have known that there was a definite possibility of forensic evidence such as blood, fibres, hair or skin tissue being discovered at the scene. His voluntary provision of fingerprints and a specimen of his blood is objectively indicative of innocence.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Your initial attempts at playful banter were mildy amusing, but alas, it has now settled into a predictable, boring pattern.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    As it turns out there was nothing

    There was a murder in Dublin a while earlier. The killer thought he was safe providing a dna sample

    I did wonder if bailey had the same thought process



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,181 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    But how could Bailey, as the murderer, know that when he volunteered the information? That's the point the DPP makes.

    The Guards had very little on Bailey at the time.

    But if something was found that's game over.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    The killer in the Dublin case had looked up the info and thought there would be no DNA at the crime scene

    That was my point

    Other than that it appears to point to baileys innocence



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    What are the circumstances surrounding Bailey's offering to provide samples

    Is it a case he was asked and felt it would arouse suspicion if he refused ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,181 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Snippet from DPP report, unclear when \ how the first one occurred:

    Bailey willingly gave his fingerprints and a sample of his blood to the Gardaí for analysis and examination. These specimens were given at a time when he was aware that apparent bloodstains had been found at the scene.

    Following his original arrest in 1997, Bailey was interviewed by Pat Kenny on the radio and he indicated that at the request of the Gardaí he had voluntarily provided a sample of his hair because it had been stated that some hair had been found in the hand of Sophie Toscan Du Plantier. It would appear, however, that the hair found at the scene is consistent with hair originating from the deceased.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Looks like he didn't have much choice but to give the samples and got lucky there was nothing at the scene

    He was asked for the samples and presumably had legal advice at that stage.

    The advise may have been to provide samples as they would be obtained anyway


    That's the other way of looking at it



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,181 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I don't see what you are basing your claim on in relation to:

    Bailey willingly gave his fingerprints and a sample of his blood to the Gardaí for analysis and examination.

    Why didn't the Guards just take the samples?

    The DPP has far more experience than any of us with regard to such interactions, I see no reason to doubt their conclusion.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Bailey going on PK saying he voluntarily gave samples is typical Bailey spin to distract

    Chances are he would have had to provide them



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