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Scotland vs France

123457

Comments

  • #302
    Yeah Right
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 761 ✭✭✭Yeah Right


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759949#Comment_121759949
    https://twitter.com/robinmckelvie/status/1756371492047093907


    You can't see the line in the above photo, but it's obvious from this shot that it was grounded and there was a separate shot that showed this was beyond the try line. Not sure if both criteria have to be satisfied in the same image, but that's a stupid law if that's the case. One showing the position and one showing the grounding should be enough.

    The big issue is the ref bottled it and sent it to the TMO, who in turn bottled it right back and left it up to the ref. You can listen back to their conversation from around the end of the 82nd minute mark.

    Ref: "there is the ball on the ground"

    TMO: "I'm just going to rock and roll it for you, stand by"

    Ref: "So you're saying the ball was initially on the foot and then it was grounded in goal. So I need to change my original decision?

    TMO: Yes........

    Ref: ...............pause.......

    TMO: Let me just check if I can clearly see the ball on the ground.....


    If we'd been denied like this against NZ in the World Cup, we'd still be talking about it months later. Same will happen if we're denied a grand slam over something similar.



  • #303
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761610#Comment_121761610

    But was the ball under control ?



  • #304
    Ben Bailey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761838#Comment_121761838

    Agreed, but that never stopped former Referees like Doyle casually giving their opinion. It was an extremely difficult situation for the officials - they must adjudicate as if it's the first minute of the game and only on the facts as they see it. That this incident meant a win or a loss is, in refereeing terms, neither here nor there.

    Who'd be a ref, eh ?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #305
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,327 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761639#Comment_121761639

    But he clearly didnt see it held up if on review he was happy to award the try?



  • #306
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,327 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761945#Comment_121761945

    Can you show me an image of the ball not under control?



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  • #307
    Billy_the_Kid
    Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭Billy_the_Kid
    Master


    https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/68282213

    Embarrassing stuff from the Scots now



  • #308
    ednwireland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,514 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762701#Comment_121762701

    ref called it held up in real time. at that point it's no try.

    the the tmo has to definitely see the ball grounded which he can't.

    so on pitch decision stands.

    it's really quite simple.

    whether it under control or not, held up or not is immaterial it might be, but it can't be proved definitively.

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



  • #309
    irelandrover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,830 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762688#Comment_121762688

    He saw it held up. On review it looked like it was grounded so he would have changed his mind, but since it cant be confirmed where it is grounded he cant award the try.



  • #310
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,327 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762777#Comment_121762777

    You keep saying its simple as if I dont understand what happened.

    I understand what happened perfectly well, the point I am raising is that its wrong and makes the game look bad/stupid when a try like that isnt awarded.

    It also shows a lack of consistency when sometimes the ref will award a try even though he clearly cant see a grounding and other times he wont.



  • #311
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,327 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762838#Comment_121762838

    Yeah so it looked like it was grounded, just like all the other tries looked like they were grounded. So why cany he change his mind himself? Sure the TMO cant overrule him without 100% proof, but surely the ref can change his mind based on additional information he gets from watching a replay?



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  • #312
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762960#Comment_121762960

    To be honest I'm not sure that there'll ever be a solution everyone is happy with.

    Had the ref over-ruled the TMO and said "Well I think it's a try" then the French would rightly claim that the process wasn't followed and they'd be the ones up in arms.

    If we remove the definitive "On field decision" bit for TMO referrals then every one complains that the refs are abdicating responsibility and complaining about interminable delays for every try that gets reviewed.

    This decision is a tough one and any team on the receiving end would be aggrieved , but it's hard to see how it gets changed without introducing a new things for people to get angry/upset about in a future game.



  • #313
    Tegan Wooden Vegetable
    Posts: 0 ✭ Tegan Wooden Vegetable


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762960#Comment_121762960

    Under the TMO Protocol that option is currently only available if the referee is unable to provide a "try" or "no try" decision during their referral. The referee is mandated to make an on field decision if possible so those situations are not as common.

    It's a no win argument. If the referee makes a definitive on field decision based on what they see we get faster decisions and will often get the correct decision where there are no suitable camera angles exist. If the referee doesn't make a definitive on field decision we'll spend hours staring at screens looking for camera angles that may not exist. Exactly the same amount of Internet discussion ensues.

    Exits thread... :-)



  • #314
    Augme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,511 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761586#Comment_121761586

    I'm not sure how or why you have come to the conclusion he thought he was wrong. The TMO seemed to instruct him to award the try because he felt the ball was grounded but then realised that there wasn't clear evidence the ball was grounded legally on or beyond the try line. I don't understand how people can argue a try should be award when there isn't clear evidence a try has been scored. It seems a strange logic to me.


    I can't think of any examples where a ref awards a try even though he doesn't think he should be awarding one. What examples given where that has happened?


    Because the referees job is to make decisions and implement the laws of the game. The ref is responsible for this and this happens at every level of rugby. I don't know why the role of the referee would suddenly be diminished at the most important level. It also complete undermines the judgement of the referee and i would consider it somewhat disrespectful if I was a referee.

    Post edited by Augme on


  • #315
    Ben Bailey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762958#Comment_121762958

    It is worth keeping one factor in mind that has been absent from this discussion thus far.

    Evidence that the ball is on the ground is not evidence that the ball has been grounded. See LAW 17.

    In this incident the Ref has seen the ball 'held up'.

    The TMO, using angles not available to the Ref or his ARs, can see the ball on the ground.

    But nobody can see a grounding. No evidence of grounding = no Try.



  • #316
    irelandrover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,830 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762960#Comment_121762960

    I don't think we're ever going to agree on this.

    Its really simple for me. The ref saw the ball held up in the in goal area. He never saw the ball grounded in the in goal area. Hence he didn't award the try.



  • #317
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,327 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121763015#Comment_121763015

    I know I would be much more aggrieved as Scotland being denied the try than France conceding the try in this specific scenario...would you feel differently or think many others would?



  • #318
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,327 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121763065#Comment_121763065

    Again, I don't disagree that the protocols were not followed, my argument is that they are wrong and let the game down in these scenarios. I'm not saying anyone did anything "wrong".

    I believe then in situations of doubt, the on field decision should be "try" and let the TMO overrule, if he has definitive evidence to do so.

    I think most people would agree that in all likelihood the try was scored?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #319
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,449 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    So, as a result, Scotland are seeking admission of the officials' error from World Rugby.

    Be very surprised if it goes anywhere, given the laws as written seem to have been upheld and the 'correct' process followed.



  • #320
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,327 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121763561#Comment_121763561

    Isn't Law 17 about the Mark? 21.1 is grounding?

    In my opinion we have (albeit separately) evidence of:

    1) the ball on the ground

    2) the ball over the line

    3) the ball in the hands/arms of a Scottish player


    Using the timestamps its simple enough to get all three at the same time, which is a grounding, right?



  • #321
    vetinari
    Registered Users Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭vetinari


    Exactly, if you stitch the frames together, it's conclusive evidence of a grounding. The assistant ref bottled it though.



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  • #322
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764089#Comment_121764089

    How can the ref award a Try if he can see the ball being held up?



  • #323
    Ben Bailey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764138#Comment_121764138

    Law 21.17

    Apologies



  • #324
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764078#Comment_121764078

    In this scenario perhaps, but again the law of unintended consequence comes into play.

    As I said , change the rules and then you introduce a new set of problems that people will spend weeks ranting about.

    It's NEVER going to be perfect and there will always be a risk of a scenario where a team feel aggrieved (and possibly rightly so) when the process goes against them.

    But we can't change the process as a result of a single incident , the collective has to be taken into account when making those changes.

    In this instance both the referee and the TMO followed the process correctly and on balance the process may have resulted in an incorrect decision in this specific instance , but that process works in the overwhelming majority of cases.

    So , changing the process to "fix" this very specific scenario that may or may not ever arise again runs the very large risk that it introduces a new problem that occurs more frequently.

    What's the saying "Hard cases make bad law" ?



  • #325
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 8,236 ✭✭✭fitz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121763015#Comment_121763015

    This is pretty much it.

    @GreeBo , what you're suggesting is pretty much a return to what we had before the onfield decision requirement was introduced. The problem is where do you draw the line? While in this case most people would agree that on the balance of probability, the try was scored, but you can't definitely prove it with the camera angles available. But what about the next case, where it's even less clear cut? Then you're relying on 1 person's interpretation of how much benefit of the doubt should be granted... That's impossible to define.

    While the current laws throw up occasional instances like this, I think they provide the best support for officials to make evidence based decisions, not solely judgement based ones. I think the onfield decision requirement has been an improvement, and I think we've had far less controversial calls since it was introduced.

    Is it perfect? No. There's always going to be edge cases that seem unfair, but I think the current process has been much fairer, on balance, that what was in place before.



  • #326
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,327 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I think any scenario where you can 100% correctly follow the process but have pretty much everyone agree that we ended up with the "wrong" result means something needs to be looked at.


    There was no one to blame for what happened here, everyone 100% did their job correctly, but, again IMO, the referee should be free to change his mind himself, based on additional evidence. It should be the case that only the TMO with 100% certainty can overrule him.

    Is it written anywhere that the referee cannot change his mind? As I'm sure I have seen them do it multiple times, before the TMO even brings it up?



  • #327
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,327 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766068#Comment_121766068

    all sorts of decisions are already 1 persons interpretation right, the referee?



  • #328
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766760#Comment_121766760

    It all comes down to "clear and obvious".

    Some people referenced the JGP try that was overturned by the ref.

    He did so because the second he saw the video and there was immediately "clear and obvious" evidence that JGP had dropped the ball - Quick decision , move on.

    That was not the case in the Scotland match..



  • #329
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,327 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766946#Comment_121766946

    Can you link to where it states that the referee can only change his mind on something if its "clear and obvious"?

    My point is that he should be able to change his mind without any TMO involvement (such as the JGP try)

    from here

    https://passport.world.rugby/officiating/match-observation-programme/why-the-whistle-was-blown-or-not/

    It also becomes quite evident when a referee calls upon a Television Match Official (TMO) when the referee’s decision simply cannot be based upon a clear and obvious interpretation of what he (or she) had just observed from their one, and only one, angle of view. There are even times when the TMO with multiple angle replays and slow motion replays cannot interpret a situation to make an absolutely certain “clear and obvious” decision.

    Despite these circumstances, it is important for referees to make decisions upon their observation of the “clear and obvious”. At other times, when “clear and obvious” is not evident, they must call upon their understanding of the game and their application of the Laws of the Game to make decisions to support their decision-making.

    Emphasis mine. This would seem to imply that they cannot change their mind without the TMO being involved, due to the big screen replay not being part of their "one and only one angle of view"?



  • #330
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767274#Comment_121767274

    The TMO did get involved in the JGP try though..

    They spoke to the ref and said "you might want to look at that" or whatever , the ref looked up and saw the screen and changed his decision - Based on the intervention of the TMO.

    He didn't just look at the screen on his own.

    The TMO speaking to the ref happens throughout the game - It's not just when he stops the game and indicates a review.

    All 4 members of the refs team are constantly talking throughout the game.



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  • #331
    TheRona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭TheRona


    Imagine if there was this much discussion about SA winning the RWC on the back of 3 1-point wins via questionable reffing decisions and TMO interventions (or lack thereof).

    It's rugby, there's always going to be stuff like this. It's always going to be best to go with the ref's decision unless it is clearly, unquestionably wrong.



  • #332
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767580#Comment_121767580

    I see you haven't been reading l'équipe or Stuff



  • #333
    standardg60
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,099 ✭✭✭standardg60


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767541#Comment_121767541

    The failing here and maybe it's a SH thing, is that Berry transferred all decision making to the TMO. He made no comment on viewing the replays himself, even after the TMO stating it was grounded and 'rock and rolling' the footage for Berry himself to see. We all know how it's usually done, ref calls for the replays on the big screen, watches them, says so this is what i see and i'm making x decision do you concur TMO?

    None of this happened, even when the footage was cued up for him Berry seemed to have no interest in watching or commenting, completely different to both the Henshaw and JGP situations.

    I'm not a fan of Berry, during the WC he told TMO Tom Foley to stop interacting with him unless it was clear and obvious, he seems to think that the job of the ref and TMO are separate entities rather than a joint exercise.



  • #334
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,054 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767796#Comment_121767796

    No. What did they have to say?



  • #335
    ersatz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭ersatz


    It's fairly pathetic to see the Scottish Union appealing to 6N to admit the ref got it wrong given that it won't change the outcome. I much prefer to see coaches and teams take the loss and look at what they can actually control. Scotland lay down and pissed about when they were ahead thinking they had the match won. That showed both an arrogance and a lack of confidence. arrogance in taking it for granted that France weren't;t good for another score and a lack if confidence in failing to play like the best form of defence is attack the you are aead and the clock is running down. They'll never win a championship with that mindset.



  • #336
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768990#Comment_121768990

    Townsend etc have always banged the drum about Scotland playing attractive rugby etc, and in the netflix doc he banged the drum about them being fitter then everyone.


    But then the reality is he cannot get them to produce that when it matters (ie in a meaningful game) and its been that way for most of his tenure.



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  • #337
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768904#Comment_121768904

    The French still going on about BOK, Etzebeth and Kolbe (and of course the anglo-saxon consipiracy) cheating them out of a WC to this day. NZ commenters moaning incessantly about the difference in treatment of Cane and Kolisi.



  • #338
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I think the criticism of Scotland is largely unfair.

    They have made their communication through the normal, official channels available. Many teams provide similar feedback seeking clarification on issues or queries around a game. I don't think this communication is going outside of that but it is being represented as such.

    In relation to their misgivings, we'd be apoplectic if it was us. The TMO clearly said the ball was on the ground. The direct quote was "The ball is held up for now.....and there is the ball on the ground."

    Berry then confirms this back to the TMO saying "....it's grounded in goal so I can change my onfield decision?"

    The TMO then appears to be flustered and rethinks the situation and backtracks on his statement "I....I need to go back on that angle to see if I can clearly see the ball on the ground".

    The fact that you can see the ball on the ground is secondary to the issue here. The TMO makes a clear statement before changing it. He shouldn't be lynched over it but it's poor communication and the situation clearly affected him.

    Scotland obviously know that it's not going to make any difference to the result but there's no harm in raising the issue to try and ensure that TMOs are more careful in their wording in future.



  • #339
    Augme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,511 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769728#Comment_121769728

    I think the criticism of Scotland is very fair. They made their comments through the normal channel and then ran to the media and told them and provided direct quotes from "sources". It seems to just another excuse for Mcgregor to excuse his failures as a Head Coach. Also, AFAIK teams ask for clarification on decisions, they don't ask for public apologies or that the error is publicly acknowledged by World Rugby.



  • #340
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769728#Comment_121769728

    Scotland should have kept their mouths shut and just asked in private.


    Also, the TMO says the ball was on the ground but he cannot say it was on or over the try line and its feasible in that moment of play that the Scotland player had tried to pull the ball back to keep the play going instead of allowing it go dead. The ball is on a boot on the try line before it was moved but nobody can be certain where it touched the ground



  • #341
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769755#Comment_121769755

    Ireland have leaked in the past about supposed private statements to them from WR that decisions were actually wrong. I'm amazed anyone thinks any team would handle this differently.



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  • #342
    Augme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,511 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770133#Comment_121770133

    Every other team has handked this differently though. I can't ever remember any other team demanding World Rugby give a public apology for an error made in a game. I mean, given what happened in the recent World Cup it didn't happen then AFAIK so for a team to do for a 6 nations match seems absolutely ridiculous.



  • #343
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769767#Comment_121769767

    TMO's issue was the ball being on the ground and said that. The referee would have ruled it as short if that was the case. He was ruling that it was held up.



  • #344
    clsmooth
    Registered Users Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    No harm with Scotland raising this issue and forcing World Rugby act. It’s for the good of the game. And it’s not the first time in this 6 nations that a poor decision seems to have been given due to the referee’s wording.

    Imagine if we had lost to France in the last play, by the highly suspect try they were awarded earlier in the game, due to the ref saying on field decision ‘try’ therefore asking the TMO to show definitive proof that it wasn’t a score. We’d have been rightly apoplectic too.

    This needs to tightened up. It’s not right that we seem to be arriving at wrong decisions due referring teams following the protocols. They’re being put in an incredibly unfair position.



  • #345
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770178#Comment_121770178

    The ref called what he has seen, the TMO said the ball was grounded, but he could not have definitely said it was grounded on or over the try line given the French boot was literally straddling the line.


    Looking at it again, the ref appears to have called held up before it was moved off the foot



  • #346
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770174#Comment_121770174

    "The dialogue between the referee and the TMO made no sense," said a source close to the situation.

    The SRU questions the decision and the message it sends. With the arrival of Netflix and the creation of their fly-on-the-wall series, Full Contact, rugby is attempting to expand its traditional fanbase and appeal to new audiences.

    The confusion at the end of the game on Saturday may confuse people that the game is trying to reach, said the source.

    "There is a need for lessons being learned so that it never happens again. This is not about Scottish Rugby being belligerent."

    This is the only quote I have seen from a "source" in the few articles I read. There is nothing particularly wrong with this.

    Townsend's comments are absolutely fine as well

    Reiterating his belief that replacement lock Sam Skinner had grounded the ball on the try line after it was initially held up on the leg of Yoram Moefana, Townsend said: “The TMO influenced the referee more [with the final call]. They have quite a big screen in that corner, so it should be the referee that decides.

    “I don’t think I am being biased here to say the ball was put on the try line, I think everybody sees that. It’s how we get to the correct decision. If it was held up and we’re here going that we’re gutted to have been held up to win a game, that would have been the right decision. But for us it clearly wasn’t the right decision that they came to at the end.

    “It doesn’t really matter. That game moves on. We’ll get feedback, we do regularly, and that’ll be one of some incidents we’ll ask for clarification on, but it doesn’t change the outcome, unfortunately.”


    Ireland have come out in the past and said "WR told us that the ref got it wrong" and that's just as bad.



  • #347
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769755#Comment_121769755

    Gregor McGregor, teh head coach?



  • #348
    Augme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,511 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770333#Comment_121770333

    We will agree to disagree, I think demanding a public apology for an error from the governing body is well out of order. And doing it for a situation where the decision reached was correct is even more ridiculous.


    I don't think that's as bad myself, unless they are specifically told not to divulge comments.



  • #349
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Maybe the reporting has been updated, but I am not seeing anywhere that they "demanded an apology".



  • #350
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,449 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Ireland have come out in the past and said "WR told us that the ref got it wrong" and that's just as bad.

    I don't care too much about this whole furore, but just on this; no, it's not. Because that was done after the fact without the external public pressure put on to influence the decision. This demanding of a public apology before WR have said anything about it is putting pressure on externally and publicly, howevert his leaked. Situations aren't the same.



  • #351
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770664#Comment_121770664

    What "decision"? I mean nothing is going to change. And again, I haven't seen this demand for a public apology, but maybe I just couldn't find it.

    It's all undermining the refs one way or another and also an attempt to deflect blame. I'm not arguing they are the same, but they are similar.



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