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Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

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Comments

  • #6662
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121775042#Comment_121775042

    The increase for the vast majority is 3.2% for 2024. That is a fact.



  • #6663
    bren2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭bren2001


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121775206#Comment_121775206

    My gross wage will be 4.25% higher at the end of the year. That is a fact. Hence, I am getting a 4.25% pay rise in 2024. That is a fact.

    I have never in my life heard of someone breaking down a pay rise like you have. A lot of my friends in the private sector have yearly reviews in September/October. When they get a pay rise that late in the year, they say "I got a 5% pay rise this year". They do not say "The effective payrise in 2024 for myself was 1.25% as it only started in October".

    Define "vast majority". Any data to backup the breakdown of the Public Sector workforce?

    What exactly is your contention anyway? my post was responding to someone saying ICTU are hypocritical calling for one thing for private workers and another for public. They're not. They're calling for the same thing.



  • #6664
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121775228#Comment_121775228

    You're not getting a 4.25% pay rise because the small increases are split up.

    Look at your P60 in 2023 and then for 2024. The 2024 figure will be 3.2% higher.



  • #6665
    Greyian
    Registered Users Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Greyian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780473#Comment_121780473

    "Look at your P60 in 2023 and then for 2024. The 2024 figure will be 3.2% higher"

    No it won't. And you know this, as it has been explained multiple times already.



  • #6666
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780600#Comment_121780600

    Here is the Mathematics:

    A person on €x per month on December 31st 2023 receives €12x in 2024 with no pay rises.

    Under this deal a 2.5% pay rise (to €1.025x) from January 1st, a further 1% pay rise (to €1.03525x) on June 1st and a further 1% pay rise (to €1.0456025x) on October 1st sees their gross salary come to 5 x €1.025x + 4 x €1.03525x + 3 x €1.0456025x = €12.4028075x

    €12.4028075x / €12x = 1.03357. . . . . a 3.357% increase which will be taxed FOUR TIMES with PAYE, USC, PRSI, Pension Levy.....Many public servants will be lucky if they see half of this percentage increase in their pockets.



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  • #6667
    _H80_GHT
    Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭_H80_GHT


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780713#Comment_121780713

    This thread is embarrassing with numerous (what I'm assuming are adults) making fools of themselves.



  • #6668
    Greyian
    Registered Users Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Greyian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780713#Comment_121780713

    "Look at your P60 in 2023 and then for 2024. The 2024 figure will be 3.2% higher."


    Again, this is not the case. You seem to be suggesting the 2023 P60 will show 2023 earnings as equal to what the annual salary was at the end of 2023. That is not the case. It will show what was earned in 2023, which will be different to both the starting and ending salary for 2023, because "the small increases are split up" for 2023 as well.


    You either compare 2023's pay received to 2024's pay received (which would be 4.6% gross for a AP @ Point 1, or 7.4% gross for a CO @ Point 1), or you count all the increases in the year in which they are given (which would be 4.25% for a PO @ Point 1, or a higher figure for a CO @ Point 1 (I don't feel like going back through the thread to find the exact calculation)).



  • #6669
    bren2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭bren2001


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780473#Comment_121780473

    And when I look at my gross salary it’s 4.25% higher.

    I don’t know why you want a back and forth on this. We disagree and are clearly never going to agree so leave it.

    Again, this is coming from the person who claimed inflation was over 6% in 2023 because of the average rate inflation. You see the CSOs figures during the week?



  • #6670
    bren2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭bren2001


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780772#Comment_121780772

    I really don’t understand Peters obsession with the 3.2%. Your analysis is perfectly fair and leads to an identical conclusion for Peter but of course he claims you’re wrong because “we would have gotten it anyway”.

    Personally, I just prefer to look at gross wage 12 months apart, I don’t really care about the breakdown.



  • #6671
    Greyian
    Registered Users Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Greyian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121775206#Comment_121775206

    Is that a fact?

    Even using your flawed method of calculation, that would only be accurate if the "vast majority" were on over €50,000 a year, as anyone on under €50,000 a year will get a €1,125/year raise (which is more than 2.25%) on Jan 1st under the proposed pay deal and also an increase of €500/year (which is more than 1%) on Oct 1st.

    Have you got figures to suggest that the "vast majority" are on over €50,000/year?



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  • #6672
    Greyian
    Registered Users Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Greyian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780783#Comment_121780783

    I've actually just realised Peter is calculating 2023 inflation by comparing each month in 2023 with the corresponding month in 2022, but is calculating 2024 pay increases by comparing each month in 2024 to December 2023.


    So 2 completely different methodologies applied and then trying to compare the results, which by its very nature is not a fair/honest comparison.



  • #6673
    bren2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭bren2001


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780896#Comment_121780896

    Yeah, he is using the average rate of inflation which compares Jan to Jan, Feb to Feb and tried to claim that’s the inflation rate. Hasn’t rowed back on it either.

    He then wants to take the December 31st paycheck and compare the monthly increase on that over the course of a year.

    He then effectively compares those figures.

    It makes no sense. The funny thing is, if he did it the correct way, he would still be right. The pay rise would not meet inflation over 2023 and 2024 but he just appears to want to argue his point instead of looking at what you are saying.



  • #6674
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780795#Comment_121780795

    My "flawed method" of calculation?Don't think so.

    And I don't think you can be taken seriously when the €1125 applies to those under €45000 and not under €50000.

    It is true that those under €45000 will get higher percentage increases inversely proportional with their wage. €45000 is approx the median salary in Ireland. Half of all workers earn less than that.



  • #6675
    bren2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭bren2001


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781006#Comment_121781006

    1125/0.0225 = 50,000…

    So not the “vast majority”. By your own assumptions, around 50% of works will receive a higher increase than the minimum outlined in the agreement?

    You don’t actually have the Public Sector stats and are just guessing based off the median which may or may not translate to the public sector?



  • #6676
    Greyian
    Registered Users Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Greyian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781006#Comment_121781006

    The increase in January 2024 is 2.25% or €1125 (whichever is greater). 2.25% of €50000 is €1125. So anyone on under €50000 (not €45000!) will get €1,125, which will be worth more than 2.25% to them.

    If you're going to say "I don't think you can be taken seriously" because you think someone got a calculation wrong, I'd suggest you make sure you've got the calculation right yourself.

    So those under €50000 will get a larger increase. Would you concede that your statement that "The increase for the vast majority is 3.2% for 2024. That is a fact." is incorrect?



  • #6677
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781055#Comment_121781055

    Oh so it's a 2.25% increase backdated to January 1st?

    I thought it was a 2.5% increase.

    It seems this crap deal is even worse than I thought.



  • #6678
    bren2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭bren2001


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781108#Comment_121781108

    Its 2.25%. You called out Greyian with an incorrect fact. By your own logic, can you now not be taken seriously?

    No data to backup your vast majority claim? 4th time of asking (3 by me, 1 by Greyian)

    Post edited by bren2001 on


  • #6679
    Iggy1986
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Iggy1986


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780739#Comment_121780739

    It’s beyond embarrassing, the same accounts over and over again. Grown adults! It’s a Saturday evening lads, get a life



  • #6680
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,861 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780739#Comment_121780739

    First thing I learnt in my current job. Never assume anything 😁



  • #6681
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    Has the AHCPS indicated when voting on the deal will happen? Forsa are starting next week but the AHCPS hasn’t updated since the breakdown of the talks in mid-January, that I know of.



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  • #6682
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781405#Comment_121781405

    It's ridiculous.....probably trolls from the DPER as the same accounts keep claiming they're getting more money than they are in reality.



  • #6683
    NapoleonInRags
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭NapoleonInRags


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121783218#Comment_121783218

    This week I hear.



  • #6684
    Ezeoul
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,269 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121783218#Comment_121783218

    I haven't seen anything from ACHPS, but (as I fully expected) Fórsa seem to be pushing it pretty hard.

    I know its the Journal, but interesting read:

    https://www.thejournal.ie/public-sector-workers-opinions-on-the-pay-deal-6285089-Feb2024/




  • #6685
    CivilCybil
    Registered Users Posts: 185 ✭✭CivilCybil


    I received my link to vote from Fórsa. The recommendation from them is to accept. I have voted against the deal. I don't believe it goes far enough towards the erosion of what my wage is worth over the last couple of years. Two civil servants in this house and we're struggling more than ever. Low enough earners as we're new to civil service.

    I'm not sure if we'd get a better deal but my conscience won't let me vote yes knowing how much we're struggling.



  • #6686
    Gusser09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,667 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    Just voted now. In favour.

    As it's an electronic ballot I'd say the results or even which way it is swinging will be available rapidly enough.

    Still expect it to fly through with 85% + of more.



  • #6687
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,606 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780713#Comment_121780713


    Although that is technically correct, the pay deal refers to "annualised earnings".

    You are using annual earnings.



  • #6688
    bren2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭bren2001


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121789141#Comment_121789141

    Its "technically correct" aside from:

    • The deal is 2.25% from January 1st, not 2.5%.
    • Workers earning less than €50,000 pa will see a higher increase than this.
    • Lower paid workers will effectively see the direct percentage increase in their pockets compared to their net.
    • Higher paid workers will effectively see the direct percentage increase in their pockets compared to their net when you factor in the tax band changes in the last budget.

    This also leaves aside the unfair comparison of how Peter compares this. Aside from all the things that are wrong, yeah, it's technically correct.



  • #6689
    shawki
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 684 ✭✭✭shawki


    7.25% by the end of 2025.

    Its a no from me.



  • #6690
    pygmaliondreams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭pygmaliondreams


    Tossed in my NO vote just now :)



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  • #6691
    Sultan of Bling
    Registered Users Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭Sultan of Bling


    No for me



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