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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

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  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    There may well have been more blood on the boots. I have looked again at the photos and, although it is not particularly clear, there are spots which may be blood in other areas than that pointed out by John Harbison. However that is the only one that appears ever to have been sampled.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,717 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I believe the French investigators found a substance on her left boot near the lower lace holes- not blood- that proved to be male. Ian Bailey made a big thing of it at the time, calling for a new investigation ;




  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    As I think I have already said the French scientists found the profile in association with the blood spot on the left boot not necessarily from it. I believe they describe it as on the upper of the boot below the tongue - but I will check to make sure. It is a male profile. They did not compare it with Ian Bailey as all of his sample was used up in testing in the early stages of the inquiry. However I have found a report which gives details of Bailey's DNA profile and can confirm that the profile from the boot is not his.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    Ian Bailey, completely drunk? Ian Bailey who while out of it with drink was able to write an article which was published the following week in the Sunday Tribune? After driving himself home from the pub? That Ian Bailey?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    We were told by Oddessy the gardai didn't have time to search the car!

    Suppose next someone will tell us the bags weren't searched.

    I also welcome bjsc to the thread. She brings some knowledge and a cool head to this.

    The amount of fictional speculation on this and the other thread has become so bad its been derailed numerous times by people claiming her neighbours or her husband are the culprits.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    OK - next question - keys.

    JP Twomey states that when he arrived on scene on the morning of 23rd December both doors were locked and police were unable to gain entry. The keys were in the back of the front door and the back door was secured with a yale lock. There is a directional smear of blood, subsequently identified as Sophie's, above the handle on the back door which may indicate that someone with her blood on their hands pulled the door closed.

    Unfortunately no-one thought to ask, either at the time or subsequently, what Sophie's normal routine was. This means that, without knowing what is normal, we have no way of knowing what isn't. She may have only used the yale on the back door but we can't know this for certain so can't interpret her movements.

    To a certain extent it is irrelevant which door she left through although anything that helps to build up a picture of what happened is undoubtedly useful. Other than the small stone with a drop of her blood on it just inside the gateway to the field in front of the house there is no evidence as to which route she took and this blood may have been transferred from the offender rather than originating directly from Sophie. I imagine the police looked extremely hard to find trace evidence on both potential routes but came up empty handed.

    Finally with regards to the breeze block. Blood behaves in different ways depending on how it is deposited on a surface. Expirated blood, which I think is what you are referring to, contains air as well as blood and forms a distinctive fine spray pattern with the blood/air bubbles bursting on contact with a solid surface.

    The breeze block shows a pattern of clear and blood stained areas on certain of its aspects which is more consistent with direct transfer from a bloody object. The clear areas being those which were "protected" when the blood was deposited.

    Hope this makes sense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Drugs and Sophie having seen something, is one of the possible scenarios.

    I think we would have to have known more about the scene back then. Was it only Leo Bolger? Or others? How much did the police know, and how far were they in on it? Who was bent who wasn't?



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    Further confirmation comes in a statement from Sgt John Healy who arrived at the scene at @14.15 on 23rd. He states - "I recalled seeing a vehicle a Peugeot 305 estate parked within the crime scene area on the road leading away from the scene. It was faced away from the scene and had black plastic bags in the boot area. The bags were full. I attended the scene and spoke to members there. This may have taken 5 to 10 minutes. I then noticed the female from the neighbouring house. This person who I now know to be Shirley Foster go through the field from her house towards the Peugeot. I spoke to Ms. Foster and informed her that nothing could be removed from the crime scene without investigation. She agreed to a search of the vehicle and the removal of the bags for further examination. She then drove off in the direction of Schull"



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    What kind of search could have been done in 10 mins! If the bags were removed what was the purpose of the trip? There is no record of a search of the bags or their contents..



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    The bags weren't searched at that point. They were removed from the car and left on the side of the road. There is a scenes of crime photo clearly showing this.

    Unfortunately there is no further info that I can find about what happened to them subsequently so we don't know if or when they were searched and what was found in them.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    In her statement Shirley Foster says that she needed to get groceries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,717 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    If Healy arrived at 14.15 and Shirley arrived 5-10 mins later, that’s 14.20 at least. Shirley met Bailey and Jules out the boreen at 14.20, so car would not have been searched at all. Also Alfie and Shirley were confined to their house for 5 or 6 days after the murder according to Leo Bolger, as he had to bring them supplies. Bailey went with him up to Alfie’s house and this was when Bailey was supposed to have seen the bottle of Champagne.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    According to Maloney , Bailey referred to a ' champagne clue' in one of his articles

    Maloney implied that this referred to the wine bottle which hadn't been found at that point



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Fair enough, I thought it was to bring rubbish to the dump. If no record can be found about the bags being searched then it shows it shows either it wasn't done or done seriously.



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    Unfortunately we will probably never know. Unless or until someone is charged with an offence the police are under no obligation to disclose what material they are in possession of.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,165 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I haven't read anything indicating the bottle of wine was champagne. So doesn't seem much of a gotcha - the opposite could more easily be argued. Just as likely used because Sophie was French.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    My assumption was that it was a cryptic clue

    If indeed it was a reference to the wine bottle



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,165 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Seems like one journalist (Senan Maloney) reading way too much into a comment

    If we brought the same suspicious eye to articles about the murder by other journalists, what sort of cryptic leaps could we make to think they know more than they should?

    Self discrediting isn't it?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    What do you think 'champagne clue' might refer to ?

    I'm not saying it's significant btw



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,165 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    No idea, especially as all we have is this reference from another article, and not the phrase used in context - at least I've never seen the article it supposedly came from here or elsewhere on social media.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Me neither but I assume the words were used and refer to something related to the case

    Also possible the words weren't used or are irrelevant



  • Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Mackinac


    Am I right in thinking that the bag seen on top of Sophie’s trolley at the airport was a duty free bag containing alcohol? I wonder if the Gardai checked the receipts in Sophie’s wallet against what was found in the house? I imagine the alcohol was intended for her own consumption but possibly as a gift/gifts as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,165 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Interesting question.

    On the subject of gifts, not sure of the source of the claim, but usually Sophie would bring gifts for the Hellens (or maybe just their children) but none this time.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,717 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Bailey wrote about the Champagne himself in one of his articles for the Tribune or Star. But he couldn't see into Sophie's kitchen on their way up to Alfie's, so probably made it up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,717 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Yes, thank you, It makes perfect sense, but a few points if I may;

    Twomey arrived at the scene around noon time, the same time as Josie Hellen. Josie had keys, so I can't see how the police were unable to gain entry. It's hard to believe the house wasn't entered until Monday night. The owner found murdered outside her locked house, there could have been someone else in the house, maybe even the murderer.

    As for Sophie's routine, the only ones I've read about is from Josie Hellen who said Sophie rarely, if ever used the back door, and she was obsessive about keeping the 3 gates closed. Josie herself always used the back door, so she would have had the key to that door.

    You're right, it's irrelevant which door she used or what route she took down to the gate, if we don't know why she went down there.

    The block I think is relevant, If it was already on the ground and she fell close enough for it to to get blood splatter, it would be a different story to someone going back to the pumphouse to get it, as that would imply knowledge of the locale. There appears to be blood on 3 sides of the block at least. Sophie had passed the pumphouse several times in the 3 days she was there, and if she saw the roof like that I'm sure she would have spoken to Finbarr Hellen about it when she saw them on Saturday.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,743 ✭✭✭dmc17


    I find it strange that the gate was fully open. As you say, Sophie was obsessive about having them closed and Shirley also said she thought it very unusual when she saw the gate opened that morning she found the body.

    Also, was there another piece of a block taken off the pumphouse? In the photo, it looks like it may be sitting beside the roof of the pumphouse, though it looks like it may have been sitting there for some time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    In her first statement Shirley says "At 10.00am I decided to do shopping and go to the dump". So taking the rubbish bags had never been her sole purpose in making the trip that morning.



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    I'm just reading back through the statements so forgive me if this is a bit hit and miss.

    The first officers on scene were Prenderville and Byrne who arrived at 10.38. Prenderville went to Alf Lyons house whilst Byrne stayed by the gate to preserve the scene. Byrne keeps an unofficial scene log which he references in his statement. Dr O'connor arrived at 10.55 and left at 11.10. Garda Joy arrived at 11.55 as did Father Cashman who left at 12.00 noon. JP Twomey arrived at 12.05 and Garda Malone arrived at the same time. Finbar arrived at 12.35 and identified the body. There is no mention of Josie's arrival time but Finbar says, in his statement, that she left home @ 30 mins before he did and that when he arrived he saw her talking to gardai. It occurs to me that she may not have had keys with her as she was coming to meet Sophie so would have had no need of then. Certainly there is no mention of them and, at this stage, no mention of anyone attempting to access the property. To be continued......



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    Pat Joy states that after Finbar had identified Sophie's body he and Ger Prenderville returned to Alf Lyons' house and on the way they noted the bloodstain on the back door of Sophie's house. So it is apparent that, at this point, no police officer had actually entered the house.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,717 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I don’t know, it looks like the top course or two may have been loose laid and it wouldn’t be unusual to leave a few gaps for ventilation, like 1/2 or 1/4 blocks.



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