Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

"Leaves Gaza in control of Hamas"

And what exactly would they be controlling? Rubble piles, destroyed infrastructure, virtually no hospitals.

Gaza is a wasteland.

Where you there?

Good one.

Imagine if Palestine set a deadline of Hannukah, there'd be no end of the cries of antisemitism.

Every day Israel tells us they view this as a religious crusade of theirs.

Could you explain your thinking here please? Surely it's not a "we're allowed kill the same number as you" kind of thing? Especially when the people being killed are Gazan civilians by the Gazan police/military forces. Surely it depends on why the kid was shot dead?

The thing is, civilian deaths happen in war. There are rules about trying to minimise those, and if it turns out that Israel could have achieved their legitimate war aim of removing Hamas from power because of the October attacks without killing nearly so many civilians, then Israel will, quite rightly, be found guilty of committing war crimes and possibly even of attempted genocide.

(I don't believe the attempted genocide thing can possibly stick, but that's an aside here. War crimes - maybe. And if so, I have no problem saying everyone responsible should be punished severely. Again, an aside, but since you brought it in...)

But the point is that we don't decide that murders by criminals are unimportant because there's also a war going on nearby. Every single deliberate death matters. Despite the war. Surely that goes without saying? We didn't give up on non-political violence and killings in Northern Ireland just because of the Troubles, after all. What the British used to call ODCs, so I guess in some ways maybe they did agree with your take on it. Personally I don't agree.

If Hamas killed the teenager because Hamas, as the elected government and in charge of justice, were trying to distribute food fairly and he wanted to steal it from more deserving civilians, that would be harsh summary justice - but fair in the context.

If however they wanted to steal it from an aid agency for their soldiers, leaving the Gazan families it was intended for to go hungry, do you really think that would be a minor indiscretion, so long as they killed fewer of their own civilians in that way than Israel has at war? Seems to me that would actually show that Israel were, in the longer term, giving Gaza perhaps its only chance at a decent future by removing a murderous group like that from having that sort of life and death power over "their" citizens.

Doesn't matter all that much, it's the fact of being found guilty that hurts - especially for a country like Israel that considers itself to be a country of law and order. There's no police force that takes a rogue country to international jail anyway, it's all about reputation.

That's not relevant here though - Israel's behaviour would not justify Hamas murdering one of its own citizens if he were only trying to get the food they were stealing for their soldiers - would it?

Beep if you support the regime who’s moved passed intent and is actually doing the genocide ^

So you didn't pull over your car, get out, and join the protest against genocide with your own placard calling for hamas to release the hostages?

Walk the walk

Those are people taking time out of their day to express speech against an issue that bothers them

And you drive on and make pithy complaints that they aren't protesting what you'd like to protest with all your free time today (but aren't).

You're dead right there - they might consider it but pretty much the rest of the world knows that they are just another terrorist state.

Why would they be waving flags with Mickey Mouse on them?

Perhaps it was a rally in support of Walt Disney that you saw?

Genocide, if you prefer. I wasn't trying to diminish the importance of the crime.

As for Northern Ireland, it came up - yet again - only a few posts ago. The only reason it's relevant here is from my personal experience of normal crime continuing as usual during the troubles, and that one does not cancel out the other. Which is what you seemed to be doing when you dismiss a killing of a Gazan by Hamas on the pretext that far more Gazans have been killed by Israel. Do you think that's a comfort to the boy's family or something?

Egypt doesn't seem to be buying Israeli assurances that they aren't going to push the Gaza population into the Sinai

Haaretz:

Hmm - there must be a threshold number of civilian deaths that does not constitute genocide...

Netanyahu seems a bit touchy alright - perhaps because everyone else sees that Israel crossed a red line a long long time ago (credit to other posters for some of the data):

Against:

• 35,000 dead
• 70,000 wounded
• 2000lb dumb bombs (lethal fragmentation radius of 370m)
• White phosphorous
• 260 infants less than 1 year old murdered
• 90 children killed daily - every single day since 7th October.
• Sniping nuns, civilians carrying white flags and sheep
• Refusing water, food, fuel and medical aid
• Looting, stealing and rifling through knicker drawers
• Leaving infants to decompose in an ICU unit ad not even giving them the dece3ncy of a burial
• Bulldozing cemeteries
• Bombing ambulances and killing medical responders
• Razing universities, schools and places of worship
• Destroying hospitals
• Zaka filming PR videos on Oct 7th to raise funds
• Deliberately Targeting children and "safe areas"
• Murdering medical personnel
• Killed three of their own surrendering hostages speaking Hebrew
• Multiple war crimes
• Civilians living on animal feed (presumably a bit more of it to go around with the IDF sniping sheep)
• 70% of homes damaged
• 84% of health facilities attacked
• 90% of the population displaced
• 80% of all the starving people in the world are in Gaza

1. For Israel to take "all measures" to prevent acts of genocide from taking place - FAIL
2. To ensure the IDF does not engage in any acts of genocide - FAIL
3. To prevent and punish public incitement to genocide, including by government and military officials - FAIL
4. To enable basic services and humanitarian aid to reach Gazan civilians - FAIL
5. To preserve evidence related to violations of Genocide Convention - TBD
6. To submit a report to the ICJ within one month on all measures taken - TBD

For

• Rescued three hostages

I didn't dismiss the killing of anyone

Another talking point the rest of them have largely moved on from. You really should read the thread before making any more of what you probably think are these profound contributions.