Clontarf to City Centre Cycle & Bus Priority Project discussion (renamed)

Citizen Six · 14-02-2024 6:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765748#Comment_121765748

That bridge will likely be replaced in the next decade anyway.

Pete_Cavan · 14-02-2024 8:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767332#Comment_121767332

I suggested two cycle lanes on the other side of the road IN ADDITION to the cycle lane on the park side. This is achievable without any tree removal. It was just a suggestion of what could potentially be done later without dragging up lots of issues. Everything else being done now would remain.

Two lanes on the park side simply isn't achievable without large-scale tree removal. The works along the park are as good as complete, there is no chance of going back and ripping out trees to create two-way cycle lanes any time soon. And yes, trees would have to be removed to create sufficiently wide cycle lanes allowing (bearing in mind your complaints about the width of cycle lanes on GA).

Your bullet points are all frame in such a way that they are duplicitous;

Of the 12 junctions you claim, 4 are access to a back lane which get very little traffic and 5 others are narrow residential roads. The other 3 are signalised junctions. The other side is not "unimpeded", there are busy car parks with access/egress across the cycle lane
There is no perfect solution to the problem of those cycling from the Fairview Park path to Clontarf cycle path. Proposing to dig up what has been done, fell trees and alter a 200 year old stone bridge which carries a vital rail link certainly isn't a viable solution either. Maybe what you described with allowing people cycle both ways on that section could be deemed a solution but it would equally be a fudge
Folks cycling from Howth/Clontarf wouldn't have to switch to a two way path on the other side of the road, they use the existing cycle lane along the path. The two-way lanes on the other side would serve local movements on that side.

Again, two-way cycle lanes opposite the park could be in addition to the existing cycle lane on the park side. If you are saying it wouldn't integrate with the exiting Howth to Clontarf cycleway because of the need to cross to the other side of the road, you will need to cross heading out of town anyway (for the nth time). The cycle lanes on each side of NSR and Amiens St won't be changing for a very long time so the need to cross will be there regardless. Not "integrating" will apply no matter what is done.

bk · 15-02-2024 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768363#Comment_121768363

So I've just walked the full length of Fairview Park from the junction with Alfie Byrne Road to Edges corner. Some observations:

1) There is plenty of space under the rail bridge for a two way cycle path. The cycle path is actually wider then I remembered, I didn't measure it, but at least 2 meters and while the footpath narrows, it is still plenty wide. You could easily narrow the footpath a small bit and push the traffic lanes over a small bit too and create say a 3 meter two-way cycle path under the bridge.

2) There is plenty of space for a two way cycle path just inside the park without needing to cut down a single tree! The existing path is fine and wide and even has extra space that is just grass on both sides of it, if it needed to be wider.

I even took pictures and can post them if you don't believe. So please stop repeating the "need to cut trees down" nonsense.

3) Interestingly the path just inside the park is actually sign posted as a shared space! So nothing stopping folks from using it as a two way cycle path right now!

I suggested two cycle lanes on the other side of the road IN ADDITION to the cycle lane on the park side. This is achievable without any tree removal. It was just a suggestion of what could potentially be done later without dragging up lots of issues. Everything else being done now would remain.

Again, no tree removal needed!

Also I'm not sure if there would be enough space to add a second cycle lane on the road without removing a traffic lane.

But also you would need to dig up the new bus stops that have just been built to put in a two way cycle lane and rebuild the bus stops now pushed further out into the road (see above comment about road space).

That would be vastly more space, cost and disruption then simply using the existing path inside the park as a two way cycle lane.

Plus it doesn't solve any of the problems. It wouldn't solve the biggest problem of folks cycling two ways on the one way path between Fairview Park and Alfie Byrne Road.

Certainly no one cycling inbound from Howth/Clontarf would cross over to your northern side two way cycle path, when they can just continue straight on along the park and not have to stop at traffic lights half a dozen times along your two way cycle path.

It is a completely illogical idea that would cost a lot of money, with little or no benefit and not solving the problems.

And yes, ideally I think they should have built a two way cycle lane all the way from Howth to the City center. It doesn't make sense for it to be two way for half the route and then switch to one way for the new half. That is just poor design.

Of course I'm not suggesting that this will be changed now, what is done is done. But the reason I highlight these mistakes, is because while these cycle paths are better then what came before, they are still like only a 5/10 or 6/10, with obvious mistakes and error and without a small bit of extra thought they could easily be a 8/10 or 9/10.

These cycle paths feel like they are designed by someone who has never cycled. I'm hoping that they can learn from these mistakes and do better in future.

Though in this case, I do think they need to do a two way section at least between Alfie Byrne Road and the entrance to Fairview Park, that is very broken and lots of people are going to cycle two way regardless. Also Griffith Avenue needs to be ripped up and redone as a two way cycle path.

Podge_irl · 15-02-2024 2:34pm

Though in this case, I do think they need to do a two way section at least between Alfie Byrne Road and the entrance to Fairview Park, that is very broken and lots of people are going to cycle two way regardless.

I'm really not understanding what you mean by this. If people are using the inbound lane as a 2-way at the moment it is cause the outbound lane isn't there yet. Why would they cross over to start cycling against traffic?

3) Interestingly the path just inside the park is actually sign posted as a shared space! So nothing stopping folks from using it as a two way cycle path right now!

Apart from the fact that shared spaces suck for everyone which is partly why no one is going to use it.

I think it is great that you look to best practices elsewhere when demanding better facilities. But I am not aware of anywhere where 2-way cycle lanes are the standard. Cycling in the contraflow lane on them is annoying.

Citizen Six · 15-02-2024 4:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770712#Comment_121770712

What's the minimum clearance needed under the bridge, if you push the traffic lanes over, as you suggest?

bikeman1 · 15-02-2024 4:08pm

I was chatting to someone today and they were told that on the shops side at Fairview and Marino Mart, they have come across far more pipes and utilities than were actually mapped! This is severely slowing down the opening up of the ground, as they have to painstakingly dig in slowly and then hoover out the muck around the pipes etc.

This is what has delayed the project on this side.

LXFlyer · 15-02-2024 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771609#Comment_121771609

Same issue occurred on Amiens Street.

Thelonious Monk · 15-02-2024 5:37pm

was just coming back from fairview going towards north strand and there was some woman coming towards me in the bike lane, which i'm sort of ok with given the **** show the other side is at the moment, we were both slowing down and ended up having to stop to let each other pass. she then goes to say "it's a left side bike lane stay on the left", i told her it's one way and she just kept saying no it isn't no it isn't. f*cking moron, it's clearly a one way lane.

Citizen Six · 15-02-2024 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772030#Comment_121772030

You'll get those people no matter what. And there'll be a lot that will just continue doing it even when the other side is open.

Citizen Six · 15-02-2024 8:20pm

Someone needs to get on to Joe Duffy, cyclists seem to be dismantling the old sea wall yet again. I wonder what could have actually caused this to happen. 😂

JRant · 15-02-2024 8:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772735#Comment_121772735

It definitely wasn't a bus or truck...

Judging by the awful standard of work done elsewhere along the route I'm not surprised it's started to fall apart already.

Citizen Six · 15-02-2024 8:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771609#Comment_121771609

Looks grand!

Pete_Cavan · 15-02-2024 9:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770712#Comment_121770712

If the path inside the park is sign-posted as a shared space, then that accommodates outbound cyclists along there at least, great. Two-way cycle lanes outside the park (i.e. where the inbound cycle lane has been built) certainly would require tree removal, there just isn't enough space between the trees east of the footbridge. You could put two cycle lanes inside the park but this would make getting to/from the other side of the road difficult. The shared space does the job of outbound cyclists on that side anyway, which is likely very few as anyone coming from closer to the city centre is already on the other side of the road.

If you could get two 1.5m cycle paths under the railway bridge that would be great too. There may be space on the ground but you also need the space 3m+ off the ground.

I honestly can't believe you are still talking about someone cycling inbound from Howth/Clontarf would cross over to a two way cycle path on the other side. I have stated several times that the the cycle lane on the park side would remain, inbound cyclists wouldn't have to cross. I honestly don't know how that can be made any clearer to you!

And this conversation started with me saying that a should be removed between Annesley Bridge and Marino Mart. Needing to take a traffic lane isn't news to me! The extra traffic lane on that stretch isn't really needed as there is a lane less immediately before and after it. I said that the space should be taken to create an additional cycle lane on that side and more pedestrian space. And no, that wouldn't be expensive, you remark a car lane as the bus lane and paving the bus lane. And once again, that doesn't change anything on the other side, inbound cyclists wouldn't have to cross over.

Two way cycle lanes all the way from Howth to the City centre might be good for some people but not everyone. Everyone in Ballybough, norther side of NSR, Fairview and Marino would have to cross the road every time to use the cycle lanes. The two way cycle lanes also becomes more difficult as you approach the city centre as there is more diversity in terms of where people are going to/coming from and this is very diffiicult to accommodate at junctions, etc. Not everyone is cycle to/from the Clontarf promenade.

loyatemu · 16-02-2024 10:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772030#Comment_121772030

but if you do encounter someone going the wrong way (it happens in every one-way lane in my experience), surely you would move to the left?

Citizen Six · 16-02-2024 10:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774445#Comment_121774445

Yeah, you would think so. That's why I keep to the left. Yet I was struck by someone travelling on their right.

Keeping left also allows cyclists to overtake. And you often don't notice them approach from behind.

Thelonious Monk · 16-02-2024 12:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774445#Comment_121774445

yeah usually but whatever way it happened we both ended up having to stop, like when someone's walking towards you and you end up getting stuck in front of each other for a second and both try and get out of the way to the same side at the same time and it becomes awkward and funny

bk · 16-02-2024 1:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771587#Comment_121771587

I'm not sure, though honestly I'm talking about moving over the driving lane no more then perhaps 50cm. An extra 50cm from the road + an extra 50cm from the footpath would give you a 3m wide two way path. There is even a rather wide concrete curb separating the bike path from the road which could be made narrower to reduce the impact on the road.

bk · 16-02-2024 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773156#Comment_121773156

Two-way cycle lanes outside the park (i.e. where the inbound cycle lane has been built) certainly would require tree removal, there just isn't enough space between the trees east of the footbridge.

I don't know why you keep repeating this as no one is suggesting this!

I honestly can't believe you are still talking about someone cycling inbound from Howth/Clontarf would cross over to a two way cycle path on the other side. I have stated several times that the the cycle lane on the park side would remain, inbound cyclists wouldn't have to cross. I honestly don't know how that can be made any clearer to you!

And I couldn't make it clearer that putting a two way cycle lane on the Marino Market side makes no sense and doesn't solve any of the issues of folks cycling the wrong way on the inbound cycle path or coming out of Fairview Park.

And this conversation started with me saying that a should be removed between Annesley Bridge and Marino Mart. Needing to take a traffic lane isn't news to me! The extra traffic lane on that stretch isn't really needed as there is a lane less immediately before and after it. I said that the space should be taken to create an additional cycle lane on that side and more pedestrian space. And no, that wouldn't be expensive, you remark a car lane as the bus lane and paving the bus lane. And once again, that doesn't change anything on the other side, inbound cyclists wouldn't have to cross over.

So pure fantasy! This project already faces enough public opposition without trying to take away whole traffic lanes!!

Two way cycle lanes all the way from Howth to the City centre might be good for some people but not everyone. Everyone in Ballybough, norther side of NSR, Fairview and Marino would have to cross the road every time to use the cycle lanes. The two way cycle lanes also becomes more difficult as you approach the city centre as there is more diversity in terms of where people are going to/coming from and this is very diffiicult to accommodate at junctions, etc. Not everyone is cycle to/from the Clontarf promenade.

There is where we fundamentally disagree. I live to the north of Marino, personally I'd VASTLY prefer to cross to a two way cycle lane on the south side of the road then deal with a one way cycle lane (which you would need to cross too at least one anyway).

I really don't understand the problem with crossing to get on and off a two way cycle lane, it is a nothing burger. I mean the people living in Clontarf already have to cross to get too/from the Clontarf cycle lane and I've never once heard anyone complain about it, on the contrary the people of Clontarf love it.

I would LOVE to have a two way cycle lane on Griffith Avenue, even if it meant having two cross to get too/from it. Once on it you would have a vastly better experience.

The advantage of two way cycle lanes is that they allow for a better and safer cycling experience, while requiring no extra road space.

Sure a two way on both sides of the road is the ideal, but realistically not possible on most roads. I'd take a single two way cycle path over a one way path every time.

bk · 16-02-2024 2:11pm

Interestingly the London City Design Standards say that two way cycle lanes should be used and placed on the quieter, less busy side of the road, for instance besides rivers or parks. So that cyclists have less intereactions with pedestrians around busy shops and less interactions with traffic lights and road junctions.

Of course, makes perfect sense.

They also point out the advantage of two way cycle paths for cycling tidal flows, where for instance a lot more people are cycling inbound in the morning and then swap to outbound in the evening. Which would certainly be the case here.

However they also do build on prefer one way paths on some roads too. Interestingly these standards for even one way cycle lanes are much higher then this cycle path, London specifies 2.5 meter one way paths + 35cm buffer. Where this is just 2m and can go down to 1.7m (and down to a crazy 1m on Griffith Avenue). I'd probably have less concerns if these were meeting the London standards of 2.5m, more room for overtaking even on a single way cycle path.

Citizen Six · 16-02-2024 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121775265#Comment_121775265

Bridge is currently cleared for 5.19m. Any less could cause problems I'd imagine. Any bridge strike stops all rail traffic until it's examined and considered safe to reopen.

Tarabuses · 16-02-2024 6:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121775265#Comment_121775265

Why should pedestrians lose 50cm from the footpath?

Pete_Cavan · 16-02-2024 8:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121775384#Comment_121775384

The issues of folks cycling the wrong way on the inbound cycle path from Fairview Park are likely exaggerated now due to the lack of outbound cycle lane. Most coming from the city centre will almost certainly remain on the outbound side until at ABR (plenty will have turned off before then anyway) as they will be on that side already. It is unlikely to be a big issue later and your focus on addressing it is misplaced. An outbound lane could be added from the park to ABR if there is space (there may not be) but that doesn't mean an outbound lane shouldn't also exist on the outbound side where there definitely is space.

And I'm not actively calling for an inbound cycle lane to be added on the other side of the road for that particular section, it was just a suggestion of something which could be done in the future. Call it a fantasy but it is more realistic than two way lanes being done on the inbound side from Clontarf to the city centre (I know you are calling for what is being done now to be ripped up but it is unfair to dismiss what I have said as fantasy when your preference is even more of a fantasy). Two lanes on the park side might make sense if they continued all the way into town but they won't, so in that context, two lanes along the park and nothing on the other side would force many people to cross the road twice which would definitely be worse than the current plan.

Removing a traffic lane there would be entirely reasonable, there is one lane immediately before and immediately later the two lane section so reducing it to one lane is not . While there would be resistance, it would be entirely in line with all local and national policies. We are looking to reduce traffic so with less traffic in future the second lane could be removed.

Ironically, removing the second lane would be the best way to have lanes in both directions along the park. The inbound driving and bus lanes shift over and the current bus lane could accommodate two lanes outside the line of the trees. The three lanes at Malahide Road junction would probably have to be retained though but you keep saying an outbound cycle lane could be added from the park to ABR anyway.

Citizen Six · 16-02-2024 8:46pm

Anyone who thinks they are going to put in a two way lane between Alfie Byrne and the park is in a fantasy land. Pretty much the same goes for removing a traffic lane. There's just no way they are going to redesign something that's taken so long and cost so much. Besides, the project engineers don't think there's anything wrong with it. And they believe people cycling in the wrong direction will disappear once the outbound lane is finished.

MarkN · 17-02-2024 2:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735688#Comment_121735688

So why is one person entitled to use an area over another? Great attitude from a moderator also.

Seth Brundle · 17-02-2024 9:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121778687#Comment_121778687

My "and so?" was a reply to your post which appeared to justify the people blocking a bus lane, a segregated cycle path and a footpath simply because their kids wanted to go for a swim. There is no excuse for people blocking public infrastructure like that except pure selfishness.

Oh and I'm not a mod in the cycling forum but if you have an issue with my post then please feel free to report it!

maisie45 · 18-02-2024 7:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121777338#Comment_121777338

Drove through there today and stopped to take right turn up Malahide Road.

Loads and loads of pedestrians and paths are narrow around the bridge , the idea of reducing the width further is ridiculous.

While waiting at the traffic lights I saw three people cycling the wrong way on the cycle path towards Clontarf,one was s food delivery driver going very fast, presumably on an electric bike.

Someone cycled from the Howth Road onto the path snd narrowly missed anothet cyclist going the wrong way, an accident here is inevitable.

There were a couple of people cycling too fast too, the cycle path is narrow, lots of pedestrians so cyclists need to adjust speed to the conditions.

There will be no increase in cyclists while you have other experienced cyclists booting down cycling lanes, some today were out in Lycra and it is intimidating to have them at your back wheel trying to overtake, this issue has to be addressed as anyone powering at speed needs to be on the road.

Tenzor07 · 19-02-2024 11:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784990#Comment_121784990

Dang Lycra louts! I've seen that Gang around hanging out at Lycra Biker bars sipping espresso's and eating Almond bakes, they should be banned I tells ya!

Thelonious Monk · 19-02-2024 11:30am

Around 0900 this morning the Garda were ticketing a van and a car illegally parked in where I've taken this screenshot from Google, which shows about 6 illegally parked cars lol. Anyway was good to see, thought I was hallucinating.

cgcsb · 19-02-2024 11:49am

The Malahide Road Junction is a real mess, hope it gets sorted soon, trying to make a turning movement through there on a bike at the moment is lethal. Is there a clear completion date yet?

Citizen Six · 19-02-2024 4:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121787331#Comment_121787331

End of June is the date they are telling people.

Clontarf to City Centre Cycle & Bus Priority Project discussion (renamed)

Comments