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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,852 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    What is it about Metrolink that awakens the fiscal conservative in so many people? State expenditure as a whole has ballooned in the last few years, with precious little value to show for it, but you never really see any complaints about that.

    Now here we have a very worthwhile project which is overdue by decades, which is guaranteed to achieve so many aims in so many ways, which has a proven cost benefit ratio, and where no city ever to build a metro has regretted it. But we're told "Nothing could be worth that sort of money".



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭pigtown


    The problem with this argument is that you're implying that the OPW have had no issues with mismanageing the Phoenix Park so they should now have no issues with mismanageing Stephen's Green.

    They're in charge of the Green. They wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't raise an objection to the biggest most destructive project to likely ever impact it.

    I'm of the opinion that the disruption is worth it, but I fully defend their point of view



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 Steve Allen


    From the limited reporting I've read of the hearing today I'd be quite happy with the OPW's pronouncements. I was expecting much more screaming from them and it seems TII have done some great engagement work to get them on side.

    If the same has happened with Trinity then I'll be even happier



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    I know it's ten years (minimum!) away, but it's exciting that it's come to this stage, and no major road blocks have been identified. When I saw mention of an historic pub needing to be demolished, I thought "Oh no, if its the Brazen Head, it will never happen".

    Apparently a number of residents of Ranelagh have raised concerns about it "bringing down the atmosphere of the area", or some such rubbish. Last time I was in Ranelagh it was indistinguishable from many other areas on the south side, with many of the same usual eateries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,189 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Is this finally happening? I remember the buzz from over 20 years ago that we might actually get this



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  • Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭specialbyte


    Just FYI that TII have uploaded a load of new documents under the heading "Documents submitted during Oral Hearing" to the project website. https://www.metrolinkro.ie/

    It includes almost all of the additional information that the planning inspector asked TII for, and which TII presented to the oral hearing this morning. Mostly how in the last 507 days since the application was lodged there have been lots of changes to policy documents, strategy documents and legislation, and do any of those changes affect the environmental analysis done within the original planning application. The answer is no, not really But they have redone and resubmitted chapters of the environmental analysis showing things like if you re-run the traffic analysis using the 2022-2042 Dublin Transport Strategy vs the 2016-2035 Dublin Transport Strategy they used in the original submission the traffic impacts and passenger counts in the metro are practically the same or slightly better now.

    Also Fingal County Council really screwed over TII a little by adding "Santry Lodge" to the record of protected structures a few months ago, a building that wasn't protected before now as and that building's original gatehouse and boundary wall are being knocked for the metro link tunnel portal and bridge over the M50. You can read more about that here: https://downloads.metrolink.ie/oh/Witness%20Statement%20of%20Rob%20Goodbody.pdf

    The submissions from FCC, DCC and NTA today we're all pretty short and super supportive of the project, talking about the collaboration over the last few years and how ML is vital for their strategic plans.

    The fun will start tomorrow with the theatre of Senator Michael McDowell and other public representatives.

    Post edited by specialbyte on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭gjim


    Did you notice that someone replied to your last comment on this thread with "This is deranged"? The "this is deranged" comment got 24 upvotes while your conspiracy theory about ML got zero upvotes? Did that not tell you anything?

    This comment is also clearly deranged - admittedly in a different but xenophobic way. I've absolutely no idea why you're here on this thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Ranelagh is a cracking neighbourhood, what are you on about?

    (I don’t agree with the objectors fyi)



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,337 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    What's the word on it? I haven't read anything about it, so I assume that it's TII saying that they're in talks with the OPW?



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,337 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Love that they've created a doc on the Glasnevin station, with all the possible conflicts between Dart+ and Metrolink on the works there, but don't have a single mention of how long the tracks are going to be disrupted for.



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  • Yeah, Michael McDowell’s gaff is in the heart of Ranelagh on the triangle, will be interesting to see his response.



  • Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭specialbyte


    That's in the original submission. Buried deep in Append A5.5: Glasnevin Construction Report: https://downloads.metrolink.ie/documentsro/A5.5%20Glasnevin%20Construction%20Report.pdf From page 15:

    The construction sequence includes a coordinated approach to the track lowering, which results in closure of the MGWR railway for a period of approximately 21 months, reopening, followed by closure of the GSWR railway for 5 months, for track lowering and GSWR bridge slide works. 

    There's lots of diagrams in that document outlining the 14 step construction process that are worth skimming through IMHO.

    From those who don't speak train geek:

    • GWSR is the old Great Western and Southern Railway. Closure of 5 months. This is the upper line that connects the Phoenix Park Tunnel and Maynooth Railway lines through Drumcondra Station to either Connolly or Docklands.
    • MGWR is the old Midlands Great Western Railway. Closure of 21 months. This is the lower line that runs along the canal and under Croke Park. It only really connects to Docklands station.

    There is an engineering link railway from the MGWR into Connolly station from but as far I know no scheduled train service uses that section of railway. MetroLink does include a railway junction between to the west of Glasnevin station to allow both Phoenix Park Tunnel trains and Maynooth trains use either GSWR or the MGWR. Currently Phoenix Park tunnel trains can only use the GSWR but with that junction those Phoenix Park Tunnel trains could get to Docklands for the 5 months the GSWR is closed at a minimum.

    One railway line will always be open to traffic. IMHO the GWSR line is way more useful so it being closed for the shorter period is a good choice. 5 months is a long while but if you can at least still get a train to Docklands it wouldn't be the end of the world, particularly if done using mostly summer months.

    I suspect the plans involve a number of weekend closures of the railway too. But headlines figures are 5 months and 21 months but not at the same time.


    Edit: just to note that the EIAR construction reports are always worst case estimates. They need to do an environmental impact assessment on the worst possible case scenario. Irish Rail in their submission to MetroLink think the closures will likely be shorter than TII is predicting the EIAR.

    Edit 2: There is another set of top-down visuals on the construction of Glasnevin station on pages 100-113 of report A5.3 Construction Sequencing Report: https://downloads.metrolink.ie/documentsro/A5.3%20Construction%20Sequence%20Report.pdf



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 Steve Allen


    Just what I read in The Journal.

    "However, he acknowledged the “positive, constructive engagement between officials from TII and OPW” on the MetroLink project over the past number of years.

    As a result of that engagement, he said the OPW is of the view that “significant progress” has been made on many of the matters raised in its submissions.

    He said it is anticipated that where agreement has been reached, these will be presented to the oral hearing in the form of an agreed schedule of commitments and mitigation measures which the board will be requested to attach as a condition to the railway order.

    It is hoped that matters outstanding will be resolved by agreement before the end of the oral hearing, he added"

    https://www.thejournal.ie/metrolink-hearings-day-one-6303373-Feb2024/



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,760 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    "There is an engineering link railway from the MGWR into Connolly station from but as far I know no scheduled train service uses that section of railway."

    Not currently, but it is available for passenger service; rather than being engineering only. There was one train a day using it until a few years ago; but recently enough I have been on an emergency passenger use - something fell on to the line after a train left Docklands that required reversing and use of it.

    A substantial number of people connect to Swords Road buses at Drumcondra which would be discommoded by Maynooth services only serving Docklands/Connolly in the interim - DCU students being a major element of that. An extended five month Summer would either hit exams or hit the start of the next year; as well as airport traffic but doing it during the college year is also not a great option.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,337 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Thanks, I'm not sure how I missed that doc the first time around, I specifically went looking for something like it.

    Incredibly sensible and impressive, in my opinion. A lot of right options are taken there. It's long been clear that Glasnevin stain was going to be the most complex build in the entire route, so it's great to see it spelt out in detail.

    Funnily enough, back when this was first proposed, I said that they'd keep one line open at all times, but others said that was highly unlikely, so I looked into it further and came to the conclusion that I was wrong, and that they'd cost the two lines to get it done quicker. Very happy to have my updated opinion proven wrong.

    While they've done their best to minimise total line closures, the phoenix park line will be totally closed for those 5 months, as there's no way for those trains to get into the other track. I had hoped that the dart+ project would have a link from GSWR to MGWR, but I presume that they only have room to do MGWR to GSWR. Of the two, it's clearly the right option to close though, and it's understandable. Surprised that this hasn't been picked up in the media yet, although if I couldn't find it, then perhaps it's not that surprising.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Is there any good twitter heads to follow for live updates from the oral hearing?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,998 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    McDowell has a vested interest in bashing the metrolink that he never openly delcares. He was key in getting the greenline metrolink extension to Sandyford/Stillorgan put on hold by secretly pushing out the lies and propaganda that the entire green line would be closed for 2+ years to complete the upgrade, this caused enough public complaints that politicians pushed to scrap it. The reasons for this is he owns several rental properties to the west of the Ranelagh level crossing who's value would likely drop when the crossing would have to be permanently closed due to the metrolink requirements and the location of the track and housing mean it cant be tunneled or bridged. My guess is he also doesn't want the north section put in place as once it becomes obvious how much of a success it is the greenline will inevitably be approved.



  • Registered Users Posts: 36,339 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Yep. And yet he manages to get on public platforms constantly criticising the project without ever having to declare his interest. It is fundamentally anti democratic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    Its a lovely neighbourhood, I agree, I used to live down the road from it, but aside from a low crime rate there's nothing unique about it. Nothing special to hold up or block the Metro development.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,998 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Except for Michael McDowells troglodytic presence



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    That is unique for sure. The thing about troglodytes is, they are not known for having a long life span.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,998 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    God I wish that would cause him to stop trying to fvck things up for younger generations but he seems to have never heard or understand the quote that "A society grows great when old men plant trees under which they will never sit". McDowell is 72, at this stage in his life hes literally just trying to stop any trees being planted at all to enhance his own selfish interests even beyond his death. That moron McCarthy is exactly the same but god knows why hes doing it beyond being a miserly curmudgeon who refuses to acknowledge he is ever wrong.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2024/0220/1433332-metrolink-project/

    Senator Michael McDowell also agreed that Charlemont is not a suitable end point due to having only two road accesses to the station.


    Mr McDowell said it is the most ""unobvious location you could imagine" to end the metro link.

    Though FF TD Jim O'Callaghan seemed to be even worse:

    Fianna Fáil TD Jim O'Callaghan has called for the terminus for Dublin's MetroLink to be moved from Charlemont in the south city centre to Tara Street or St Stephen's Green.


    Mr O'Callaghan, who represents the Dublin Bay South constituency where three MetroLink stops will be located, said that while he is in favour of approval being granted in general terms by An Bord Pleanála, it is "unusual" for a major European city not to have a termination point between the airport and the city centre.

    This point is completely stupid, most Metro systems do not terminate in the city center! Most well designed systems will pass through the city center and onto the other side.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,998 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    That is absolutely baffling reasoning, they seem to be really getting desperate now



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The other completely stupid excuse is that there will be no taxi set down at Charlemont!

    First of all them worrying about fecking Taxi's says a lot about how they think. They are saying terminate at Stephens Green because there will be Taxi set down there. But that makes no sense, just get the Taxi to Stephens Green anyway, the presence of a stop at Charlemont doesn't change your ability to get a Taxi to the Metrolink!



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,050 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    I would see needing taxis in a city centre as a sign that there is inadequate public transport. The solution is more PT not more taxi access!



  • Posts: 13,688 Callum Scrawny Vent


    Nonsense.

    The N25 toll is constantly going up because they're not making enough money. It was a GREAT AND MUCH NEEDED INVESTEMENT but we know the hidden cost.



  • Registered Users Posts: 777 ✭✭✭MICKEYG


    Christ, that is equal parts and annoying and worrying. Either they are deliberately being difficult or they actually have zero clue or sense. Part of me thinks they should be fined for this. Surely an objection must have some merit rooted in common sense or genuine concern. The cost involved in facilitating this rubbish must be significant, let alone the time delays it puts on projects.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,377 ✭✭✭prunudo


    All we can hope is that the aBp planners listen to the experts and not the negative opinions of the objectors.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,998 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Are they under the mistaken understanding that the terminus is the only other station on the route and it just goes from charlemont to the airport?



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