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63A main panel fuse blows if power outage occurs

  • 16-02-2024 8:58pm
    #1
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    As the title says, just had a call from my daughter, they've had issues at their house in Duleek with the main 63A fuse in the panel blowing when the power comes back on after an area failure, and then today, ESB were doing a significant upgrade in their area, so they were off for most of the day, and then when it did come back on, they had 3 fuses blow before the power stayed on.

    There's nothing fancy like Solar or EV charging on the system, it's a basic 4 bed semi, and there's no out of the ordinary loads attached to the system.

    There's nothing unusual about the house or the wiring that I'm aware of, and there's not any issues with any breakers or other trips dropping out at any time, but this issue has been happening for a while, we have heard a suggestion that it's related somehow to the upgrade to a smart meter that happened a while back, but I'm not convinced, if there was an issue of this nature, I'd have expected it to have shown up in places like this, but I've not seen any similar reports.

    So, first, has anyone had any experience of a fault of this nature, and second, where to start in trying to find someone with some above average diagnostic skills to work out what's going on?

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    I imagine that the issue is external to the installation and most likely related to the outage in the first place, a transient voltage spike most likely.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    I have to admit, a one off would indeed seem to back that up, but tonight, the outage was a scheduled maintenance update, there's a new housing estate being built across the road from their estate, and there was a 11Kv overhead passing over a line of new houses, so they've been removing the overhead and replacing it with underground cables for a span of about 200 metres, so not a fault as such, just no way to switch their estate to an alternate incoming feed for the duration of the work, but when it came back on, it took 2 main fuses out in quick succession before it stayed on, I got them a box of 10 after the last time this happened, as they didn't have any spares there, my daughter was on her way home at the time so doesn't know if it was a case of instant blow, or a few seconds after it came back on, but she's obviously concerned that there's something untoward going on

    Now it's stayed back on, it will most likely stay that way until the next time they get a cut that affects their area, would the distance from a sub station have any influence on this, there's a (probably) 11Kv to low voltage cabinet not far from the house, they're on an estate, so if it was a weird external issue, I'd have expected a number of houses to be affected by something like this.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bruthal.


    If power comes back, fuse blows, and then subsequent fuses blow with no power outage from the supply, it seems to suggest something in the installation. Like its happening when power is off to the house for a while before being switched on again. One cause can be several inductive loads trying to start at power up. I seen it in shops with mcbs tripping where a load of fridges come on together after power off for a time, where as normally they would never be all starting at precisely the same time except when power off for a while. Had to switch each fridge off and then back on one at a time. Probably not the cause here though.

    Maybe try switching all breakers off before attempts at replacing main fuse, then breakers back on one at a time And see what happens.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    That's worth a try, and it could be a way forward, there's not a lot of surge loads as such in the house, a fridge and a freezer would be the only definite loads when the power comes back on, apart from that, the remaining loads would all be low value, TV's, chargers, computers, stuff like that, so I will suggest that route for the future, and see if it makes any difference, this is the first time where it's taken out more than one fuse, previous times, it's stayed on when the blown fuse is replaced.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bruthal.


    Inductive loads would be unusual to take out main fuse and not mcbs anyway. But I'd definitely try the mcbs all off next time anyway.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    That will be the plan, and I'm going to see who it was that said about the smart meter, in that I'm not sure if it wasn't an ESB emergency response unit that said it, if that's the case, I don't know how we set about finding out more.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    Do they get unusual dimming of lights during normal use at all? Kinda wondering if they have a localised voltage issue is it causing the amps to shoot up... or something odd like that.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Not sure, and I will ask, that's a valid thought, a long time ago now, we were on the wrong transformer here, and a heavy load dropped our supply to somewhere around 180 Volts, they put a chart recorder in, and we were able to get it to record as such, they had to move a whole block of 15 houses on to a different transformer, and that solved the problems for us, we were the end of that particuar line, I hadn't actually thought of voltage drop issues, Thanks for that.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,767 ✭✭✭meercat


    Are you 100% sure they are 63amp fuses.

    can you post a photo of them

    obviously turning everything on together may overload a lower rated fuse

    replacing the main fuse with an 63a mcb may help but not resolve this issue



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,077 ✭✭✭kirving


    I had similar in an apartment recently too. We had a pump to maintain water pressure, washing machine, dryer and fridge. Occasionally the main breaker would trip, and all I could put it down to was the pump cycling at the same time as one or two of the others were also starting up and causing a current spike.

    We also had around 600W of 12V LED lighting which was on a transformer, but would that cause a constant inductive load?



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Yes, absolutely sure they are 63A fuses, D02 (Neozed) 63A on both the box and printed on the fuses,

    THe only concern about using a 63A MCB would be that if the MCB is slower tripping than a fuse blowing, there's a chance of blowing the ESB sealed 63A fuse in the meter cabinet, and if that goes, it's not just a case of throwing a new fuse in, and there's a special needs child in the house who doesn't cope well without things like her tablet, and the internet, so getting the power back quickly is a priority if at all possible, she was here with us all day today because of the scheduled outage.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    I think its all the capacitive loads these days, chargers, power supplies, dehumidifiers; anything with stand-by power; all with high inrush currents due to the X and Y capacitors and pF correction.

    Many of my MCB's drop on the reapplication of power, but in fairness I have a fair few IT devices connected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,767 ✭✭✭meercat


    Have you an isolator in the meter box so a rec can replicate this issue and do some testing whilst being energised

    not a big fan of neoz fuses and holders so I’d recommend replacing it anyway

    its unlikely (but not impossible)the Esb main fuse would ever blow with a surge . Its high rupturing capacity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 606 ✭✭✭Fine Day


    Intermittent faults like this can be tricky to get to the roote of. How long are they in the house and has it always done this or is it a recent thing.

    I would switch of power at the meter and replace the main 63 amp switched fuse unit that is blowing. Also check all the other connections when there to make sure everything is tight. You have to start somewhere and this is a relatively inexpensive replacement for an electrical competent person to do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    She should really ask her immediate neighbors if they have seen anything odd. Electronic devices failing frequently, lights flickering/dimming, things with motors making odd noises etc.

    If it's not just her seeing the issue, they all need to contact esb.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Check the fuse unit for damage anyhow



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bruthal.


    To replicate, just switching off at the main switch in DB should do the same thing. But would need to be left off for a length of time like and hour or similar probably.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Seems highly unusual to me anyhow

    Main fuse blowing on power restoration



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    No isolator they were not a requirement when the house was built, it's about 20 years old, so the Neozed switch fuse is the isolator, so we can't do anything significant test wise. I think I'm going to work on some of the thoughts here, and see if there's any pattern locally, immediate neighbours won't be any help, with how the estate is laid out, and the location of the local transformer, I think they're fairly close to the end of the line, which might give some credibility to the thought of low voltage being a factor, in that everybody will be surging in the same way on a resoration. What is for sure is that this is unusual, so we will have to see if there'a any other significant factors at play.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bruthal.


    Unusual alright. As I was saying, the nearest I seen to it was in shops with groups of fridges. Circuits wouldn't reset after power cuts because all compressors would try to start at same instant, which would never happen unless they all left off for a while. Had to plug out and all back in one at a time. Seems unlikely in a house though.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Usually if there's an outage or thunderstorm i switch off circuits at main board, RCDs etc.

    Switch back on when storm is over or power reliably restored



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    I think it’s more likely the issue lies within the installation rather than on the supply side.

    The 63A fuse would take very considerable overcurrent to cause it to blow that quickly. And there is no question really but that this current is being drawn at some point downstream from the fuse and within the house. It’s conceivable that this is being driven by a higher voltage coming into the house at a particular time, but it really would need to be rather extreme - and there is no MCB tripping?

    It doesn’t quite add up, but something is wrong and it needs to be identified to ensure there isn’t a fire hazard.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Would it not be a low voltage that causes the current to spike? Could it be that because all the neighbours are drawing down as well when power is restored that causes the voltage to be suppressed, resulting in a higher draw current on the OPs property?

    I think it's likely that a few devices, pumps or motors are drawing big inrush or starter currents on restoration and the sum of all these are resulting in the blown main fuse.

    If a transient low voltage is the ultimate cause then is there a fix? Possibly only waiting until supply voltage has stabilised and then restoring power to the circuits one by one?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    There's low voltage release relays, phase failure relays etc that cut power when voltage drops or phase is lost . They'd be commonly used in industry

    Other than that imo it's prudent to switch off circuits during these times of outage storms etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    I don’t see how low voltage supplied to 230V loads in a domestic house could lead to a such a significant overcurrent event that is sufficient to take out a 63A fuse in such short order.

    Inrush could be a factor, but I still don’t think it comes even close to explaining what is required to blow the 63A fuse in what we understand to an average 20 year old build? Presumably without a heat pump.

    Difficult to see where is the potential for this 80-100A+ current to flow? And why is it not tripping any MCB’s which would typically be of more sensitive tripping characteristics than the 63A neozed and most of which would also be half the design tripping current?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    It seems a very odd problem. The fuse unit should be inspected as a precaution anyhow

    Assuming power is being restored properly after the outage it's the equivalent of a main fuse blowing after turning off the main switch fuse for a period of time

    Not something i've ever noticed happening



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bruthal.


    Motor starting currents are higher, the higher the voltage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,333 ✭✭✭Antenna


    Any chance that any SPDs (Surge Protection Devices) had been added to the installation?

    Could these go bad in such a manner to sometimes conduct when they shouldn't, shorting out the supply?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..



    There's indicators on them anyway green /red afaik worth checking if fitted

    Haven't fitted any domestic ones but afaik they mostly have 32amp MCB protection


    There's one below . UK board with tails in top of isolator and a 40amp MCB . I've mostly seen them shown with 32A




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Its worth inspecting the board anyhow see is there any unusual issue inside

    Rodents or something unusual,dont think they could cause that issue



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    The plot thickens considerably, we were up with the family yesterday, and the fault is very strange indeed, after the first fuse blew on Friday, before the second fuse was switched in, ALL the MCB's were switched off, so in theory, nothing live or connected, and despite that precaution, the second fuse blew instantly, which is even more confusing, there should have been no load on the fuse when the switch was closed.

    Have a local REC coming over next week with the relevant test equipment to see what he can find, but having talked to him, he's also not sure what to make of this scenario, and to confirm a suspicion, this behaviour has only started since the new smart meter was fitted, there were never any issues prior to that happening.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    How odd. What type of switch is being used? Any chance the switch contacts are damaged?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,357 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I would be looking to get the ESB to come out and check their wiring. A bad connection can cause voltage spikes which will only manifest at power on.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    No way I can check, it's the screw in fuse holder with a close to make after fitting the fuse, we've got several in panels here, and I've never known an issue with them, but at this stage, anything is possible, so all we can do to try and find a solution is literally check everything, and our REC is going to have a quiet chat with a friend in ESB to see if there's any issues they are aware of, there's been nothing in their notes system that normally lets them know about ongoing issues, he's as confused as I am with this one, and I'd trust his awareness of 'issues', so all we can do for now is test and see what shows up.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    We're at the point where we may have to get ESB to come and check that there's nothing strange going on with the mini pillar connections, or with the smart meter, it's looking like that may have to be the way to go forward, but they're more likely to respond to a request from a REC after he's tested than they are to me, if I ring, they'll just say to get an REC to test the panel and system, which is our next move.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,357 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Say you are concerned about a potential fire from arcing. I would guess it more likely to be an issue outside the house between you and the step down transformer.

    Blowing 63A fuses is a serious health and safety issue since the spike is usually much higher than that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    First thing is to examine the board and fuse unit before involving ESBN

    That doesn't sound like an upstream issue at all

    This is the main switchfuse and everything was off ?

    No other boards fed directly from the main switch fuse ?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    it is the main switchfuse, and yes, all breakers were off, and there's no other boards fed separately, the one panel controls everything in the house, so in theory, there was no load as such when the fuse was connected, that's what's so confusing, but until we can do some specific testing, we're in the dark on this issue.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Didn't you have a generator if I recall ?

    Is that possibly involved someway?

    What's happening when you fit a 2nd main fuse ?

    Is everything back operational?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    the generator is here, and we're 3 phase, this is happening at the daughter's house in Duleek, only an absolutely bog standard single phase residential system, and the present scenario is that the third fuse on Friday got them back on line, but it's blown one since, on Sunday, nothing since. Our REC is coming out to have a close look next week, that's his first available slot, and we're going to have a much closer look at everything, including rattling the cables to the smart meter, and if it tests good, then we'll have to get ESB involved on the basis of the rest of it tests good, and see what they have to say, and take it from there.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bruthal.


    Ruling out DB flex wiring link problem would be next, after fuse blown with no mcbs on.

    Like a Phase-N/E short or something within the DB link wiring. Between a neutral flex and busbar for an example.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Seems a very unusual issue

    You'd have to think the answer lies inside the DB

    Even if it's that , the fuse is blowing on power restoration so presumably nothing is being disturbed at the board ie: by the operation of the switchfuse

    Can't think where else the issue be



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bruthal.


    Well the fuse can't blow unless there is some sort of a closed circuit downstream of it you would think.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Well, interesting is not even close, I've just had a very thought provoking call from the REC, and he's been talking to a friend of his that's working for ESB, and as a result of that conversation, he's telling me that at the moment, there's no point him coming out to have a look at the house, as he won't find a fault, it seems that there is a known issue with Smart meters, and ESB are replacing significant numbers of smart meters because they are causing exactly the sort of problem that is happening at my daughter's, it's some sort of very strange issue internal to the meter and the components inside it, he didn't get the full exact story, but it is a known issue which has resulted in ESB having to change to a new supplier in an attempt to get away from the problem.

    Ir will have to be addressed by ESB, so the next move will be to ring ESB networks, and get them out to test the meter, and from the description given, it is faulty and will need to be replaced, and as my daughter is on the vulnerable customer list, it should happen quite quickly, so that's a phone call tomorrow morning for one or other of us, and I will report back when we get a result one way or the other.

    Thanks to everyone who contributed, it's certainly going to be an interesting end result if it is indeed the meter that's the issue, the comment made by his contact was 'avoid smart meters for now if at all possible', which is thought provoking, I don't have to worry for a while, we're 3 phase, and apparently there is no such thing as a smart meter for 3 phase at the moment, which suits me quite nicely, we're on nightsaver, which suits our recent upgrade, we've a new (used) EV that gets charged overnight when it needs it, so staying with nightsaver for now is ideal, as it won't charge fully in four hours.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Makes no sense the upstream meter blowing consumers fuse

    Sure it's not ESBN fuse in that scenario

    That's up there with smart meters tripping RCDS



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,767 ✭✭✭meercat


    As an interim measure I’d ask your rec to do an insulation resistance test on the entire installation

    id also ask him to replace the switch fuse for a 63amp mcb.

    esbn will charge for a call-out if it’s not their issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Rec should be out urgently to check main board IR etc and change fuse unit as above

    I'd believe that scenario about smart meter causing it if i seen it



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Apparently, it is taking out the CU fuse, and yes, it's caused a lot of confusion, I too would have expected the protect fuse to be the one that goes, apparently not, and it's not a case of the REC not wanting to come out, so I think a call to them, and we'll see what happens.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    REC shouldn't have to be asked

    He's giving Steve very bad advice saying there's no point coming out nothing to see

    That's a big presumption



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,767 ✭✭✭meercat




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