Public Pay Scale Query

As a new entrant to the public service you will go into the Single Public Pension Scheme. Here is a link to an information booklet - https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/for-members/scheme-information/scheme-booklet/

It's nowhere near as good as the older pension schemes so unless you are planning on putting in 30 plus years and getting promotions along the way the size of the pension won't be an incentive to join; but the certainty of the pension that a public sector roles gives might be.

He's just a troll, ignore him

Cool story, bro. Wanna try again, only maybe attempt at answering the questions this time?

What's your goal? What is your endgame? What do you hope to achieve by insulting people and (mistakenly) telling them they're doing menial work and deserve to paid a pittance because of it?

Thanks for confirming you have no idea what an AO does from one organisation to another, as predicted.

1. Nobody said it takes a genius
2. What are the rest of the duties associated with that job, you wouldn't be leaving stuff out deliberately to try to further your point, would you?
3. What does an AO do in Justice? Or Social Welfare? Or Finance?

Probably not.

Completely subjective twaddle. One man's realistic salary is another man's dream wage. But again, coming from someone who has such an obvious axe to grind and who also hasn't a feckin clue what an AO does (or most grades within the PS, I'd wager), your opinion is tainted and not worth any serious consideration (which is my opinion). Why should anyone even entertain you when all you're doing is denigrating their position in life and making disparaging remarks about them? Why would anyone listen to the mad fcuker out front who's ranting about fairness and equality if he's insulting them at every turn? Spoiler alert: They won't. You might as well be writing your posts in the condensation on your bathroom mirror for all the effect they're gonna have. Your message, which I think is a load of bollocks, incidentally, is being lost in your method of delivery.

This is honestly the only part of your post that even merits any sort of a response, tbh. So let's take a look......

• I disagree OP thinks they're being hard done by. Their use of the word 'only' isn't great, but I took their opening sentence as "does this mean I would only DEFINITELY receive 55k initially with increments each year WITH NO WIGGLE ROOM TO START ON A DIFFERENT POINT"
• Using average or median wage is a ridiculous starting point.........an AO requires a level 8 qualification. What's the median wage of college leavers with a higher degree in this country?
• Anyway.....Median weekly wage in 2023 was €907, or €47,164 yearly. AO starting wage is €36,864 (21.8% below the median).
• OP posted a higher salary range, which you better believe means there's extra work and responsibility involved. Again, you haven't got a clue what his role is. You haven't even got a clue what a regular AO does, never mind whatever specialised role the OP is looking at. This could be well below similar roles in private sector, for all you know.
• The median salary range you've posted is about 85-90% of the starting salary provided by OP, which, again, is for those with a level 8 (one level below a masters and two below a doctorate). That's hardly "well below", in anyone's language. Also, lest we forget, you're lumping all AOs into the same bracket when the vast, vast, VAST majority of them are on nearly 22% LESS than the median. You're unfairly putting your own spin on it, and it's painfully obvious
• This is all completely overshadowed by the uncomfortable fact that you are encouraging a race to the bottom. You're essentially advocating that public employees should be paid the absolute bare minimum and not a penny more. This is how you end up with absolute idiots and incompetent fools getting these jobs. Anyone worth their salt wouldn't even bother applying to these roles if the money on offer is a relative pittance (you'd be aware of this if you had any experience of the issues with recruiting suitable IT roles in the public sector, where the wages on offer far outstrip the public wages). In a graduating class of 35 accountants, the top 75% will snap up the decent paying private jobs while the rest will be left to shuffle into the lower paid PS jobs. Competent people - low wages - decent public service........pick any two, but only two.

You look and sound like a crank. The people at whom your message is aimed, are ignoring you because of your chosen method of delivery. You might as well be posting pictures of burgers in the veggie forum. Be better, for your own sake more than anything else.

Yes if you start at the first point of the scale. You can apply for incremental credit if you feel you are eligible i.e. start at a higher point. I work i a university myself and got it when I first joined. Increments are applied every year and are automatic.

Incorrect.

Increments are only obtained upon satisfactory completion of your annual appraisal, whether that's through PMDS or some other system. You don't automatically get awarded anything. I know plenty of people who have been refused an increment or who have had one delayed for a whole multitude of reasons. Including me, though I successfully appealed it.

I was speaking in general. What may or may not happen in your or any specific university is independent of any formalised appraisal system or increment policy. I guarantee you there are people in your workplace who have been denied one or had one delayed in those 20 years. I guarantee it. The fact you've never of heard it is immaterial. I've also no idea where you're getting this "authorised by the Minister" stuff from either. First port of call is your line manager, who makes a recommendation, then the head of the unit or department, then HR. Minister's don't get involved in the minutia of day-to-day personnel matters, except maybe at the very high levels.....e.g. (emphasis mine)

At the end of your PMDS you are given a rating, either satisfactory or not. That is an appraisal, no matter what way you slice it.

universities are independent of each other so to speak in general is incorrect and misleading. I work in my workplace so I can guarantee you no such thing has happened - I would know seeing as I work there. There is no mechanism for such a thing to happen in respect of PMDS as PMDS is not an assessment of performance. That is our policy and we dont even run it any more. There is no rating mechanism contained within our PMDS as again PMDS is not or never was an assessment of performance. I think it hasnt run in about 7 years and magically noone has been affected. New staff complete induction but thats it.

The "authorised by the Minister stuff" comes from my terms and conditions which would be different to other staff in my workplace based on when they started. Line managers have no involvement or authority re denial of increments/disciplinary matters etc based on my own terms and conditions. The relevant Minister does get involved and is required to do so as per our own Act - but again that varies depending on the terms and conditions of staff. Our own president (basically our CEO) cannot even take such actions without the authorisation of the Minister.

I dont work in UCC and as I am sure you are aware Universities are independent. What is applicable in UCC is not applicable in my university or probably anywhere else.

So when you said "yes increments are automatically applied each year", you were incorrect and misleading? Thanks for the clarification.

And you know everything about every person's personnel record that's worked there for the last 20 years, do you? Everything? Especially stuff that people might be ashamed to talk about like being denied am increment? I guarantee you it has happened, multiple times.

That's exactly what PMDS is. It might not be applied that way in your university, but that is not the norm and using an outlier of an example as a general statement is incorrect.

How could it be your policy if you don't run it any more? Then it wouldn't be your policy. You're not making any sense.

So you're taking your own Ts&Cs and assuming they're applicable to everyone, then? Others have different conditions of employment, yet you're making statements based on your own. You can see how that's incorrect and misleading, to use your own terminology, yes?

And yet, you made a broad all encompassing statement that all increments are paid automatically, when this isnt the case? Why?

Confirmation, again, that you have SFA notion of what an AO does. Keep displaying your ignorance while belittling a job that you clearly haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Having to resort to deliberately cherry-picking misleading information to further your point only demonstrates that your point is a load of bollocks to begin with.

First of all, this is incorrect. When broken down by age, no demographic of people in the state have more than 50% at third level degree or higher. 25-29 year olds are highest with 47%, so this statement is rubbish. In 2016, 42% of people had a third level degree, the highest percentage ever, but this includes ALL third level qualifications, not just honours degrees at level 8, which is what we were discussing.

Source for the above:

So there is something special about that, when 100% of AOs have at least a level 8. It also blows holes in your argument where you're comparing these highly qualified people with the median wages of the country at large. You're moaning that these people are paid more, remember? Of course they're paid more, they're better qualified. You might as well give out about pharmacists earning more than binmen.

Compare level 8s in the private and public sector, see how it stacks up? Are they being paid more or less? Oh, right, you don't give a flying fcuk because it doesn't suit your narrative.

For anyone else keeping score: I have now asked you a number of questions about your aim/goal of this tirade against the public sector. Someone called you a troll, but I wasn't willing to accept that on face value. The fact that you have repeatedly refused to answer these questions is leading me to believe otherwise.

Flexible? Well, you must join, and the contributions are fixed, so in that sense the SPSPS is not flexible.

The PS pensions in Ireland are unfunded. There is no pension fund. So the employers don't contribute, as there is no fund to contribute to.

A brief opinion submitted as fact, replete with wild and sensationalist claims, backed up with absolutely nothing, and finished off with another insult. No effort to answer the questions again. Not even an acknowledgement that the questions exist, never mind an attempt to answer them. An outright refusal to engage on the many points being discussed. I suspect the person who called you a troll was spot on. Maybe you should leave the grown up discussions to the grown-ups?

It's the government who sanctions these salaries.

AO II actually is often a lower grade than AO I in higher ed - AO1 would often be the highest admin grade

The question was whether or not they are awarded automatically.

You said they are.

What you meant was "they are in my university", but that's not what you said.

You've no idea whether they're given automatically in the OPs new job or not, but you told him they were.

This is incorrect, and I pulled you on it. You've admitted as much yourself in this thread, it's different from one to the next, so I've no idea now why you're getting the hump when you were wrong and I was correct all along.

So they're not automatically awarded, like you originally said.

Thanks for backing me up.

Because that's the entire basis of a discussion. Refusing to discuss things is the complete antithesis of a discussion, you can see this, yes?

You have one opinion, I have a different, opposing one. I disagree with your opinion, so I'm asking you to explain why you think like that and what your goal of raising these issues is. If you're unwilling to defend that opinion, then I reserve the right to dismiss your opinion as complete bullshit, simple as.

Others who are looking on and reading this are the same. You were called a troll earlier, they're saying the reason you're saying these things is to wind people up. That you don't really believe these things you're saying. Just looking for a reaction. I'm giving you the opportunity to prove to me, and everyone else, that this isn't true. Your opinion, if based on sound logic and reasoning, might be valid. You might win me or others over and get them to change their own opinions. Again, this is the cornerstone of a discussion. If it's based on a load of lies and bullsh1t, then you're confirming the troll accusation as being true.

If you're gonna stick two fingers up and say "why do I think this way?....fcuk you, that's why", you're not gonna win anyone over and you just sound like a crank. If you're not gonna defend your points, then your points are worthless in the context of a discussion.

If you're gonna make up lies ("more than half of adults hold a level 8"), then refuse to engage with anyone when those lies are called out, then your entire premise is worthless and can be dismissed as a load of shite, frankly.

If you're gonna act disingenuously (by using the top of the salary range instead of the entry point) when making your points, then your points ain't worth a damn.

By all means, keep doing what you're doing. It's a free country. That also means I'm free to call you out as a bullsh!t artist, though. I wouldn't do that if you weren't dodging anything that you couldn't handle.