Are the Irish fit to be let at the controls?

_Kaiser_ · 23-02-2024 09:54AM #1

On the back of my post in the RTE thread this morning - itself just the latest in a seemingly never-ending expose of incompetence, waste, lax practises and corruption involving the organs of the State - I am posting this thread to ask: are we actually even CAPABLE of running something for the benefit of the country or even just in a competent manner in Ireland?

To quote myself:

It was clear from all the drama before the Committees previously that the entire setup was rotten and the way most of them have jumped ship since (with massive payouts), or how Forbes has never even appeared, just comes across as a big FU to not only the extremely weak Minister (but that's what happens when you elect one issue ideologues into Government), the Government itself, but also the taxpayer who is legally forced to pay a licence fee to pay for all this!

But there'll be no accountability, certainly no sanctions or prosecutions, and even if Martin resigns, so what? What will really change?

What's more, I would bet that RTE isn't the only semi-state or publicly funded organisation to be rife with similar issues. When there's no accountability or even competence in the oversight of such bodies, it just leaves it open for exploitation or just generally lax practices or waste - look at what we learned about the Gardai over the last decade for example, or the Irish Water mess etc, or even just what a pain it is to deal with organisations like utility companies or Welfare. Somewhat ironically, about the only one that does seem to be run properly and even helpfully (to the public) is Revenue!

I've said it before on this site over the years... We're a nation that admires the "cute hoor", that rails against any accountability and constantly looks for an "out" when it catches up with us, and when we're not enviously/resentfully watching what others around us are at or "getting away with", we're engaging in our own little bit of shenanigans (eg: even before all this came to light, license fee evasion was still a big issue) or wishing we had the neck to do the same things.

These things happen in politics and these organisations because they are staffed by us! We are incredibly immature, parochial and selfish as a people. Not everyone, but enough that it spits in the face of anyone who DOES (apparently stupidly) attempt to play by the rules and who only ever seem to be the ones who DO face consequences as a result.

It's probably worth a separate thread really - are the Irish capable of effective self-governance?

So.... are we?

Or is this also the reason why our politicians over the years/decades have been so quick to pass off the responsibility of governance to "someone else" - first the Church, then the EU?

Is it also the reason why we continuously elect a stream of totally unfit politicians and officials, and then act surprised (but not really!) when things go wrong?

Is it why there's an air of resignation and again "can't someone else do it" to the ideas of REAL reform, REAL change and improvement to how this country is run? (Too many would "lose out" if it was?)

Is this why we as a nation are so eager to be seen as the "good boys and girls" internationally? (especially to our percieved "betters") and why we let our own actual needs be subjugated to those others/"betters"? Are we just that insecure and in need of validation that we will jump on every bandwagon or populist issue rather than look to home and clean up/sort out our own issues?

It's a serious problem in Ireland and one that is being exposed all the more when these organisations and politicians come under scrutiny or pressure - but do we as a society actually WANT it to change, or will it (as I said earlier) just be those who DO try to play by the rules who'll pay for it - literally and otherwise!

Thoughts?

pauly58 · 23-02-2024 09:56AM

Sad but true, I think it was Churchill that said the Irish will never be able to run themselves. I think the IMF will be back before too long, the amounts the Government are throwing away is madness, incompetence at every level.

gmisk · 23-02-2024 10:03AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806021#Comment_121806021

Churchill said and did a lot of things. Some of which were nonsense, other opinions that have aged horrendously, the fact he is so lorded by a huge chunk of people is odd.

I don't think the current UK government can talk either...lol.

I don't disagree that money has been wasted by the Irish government at times very badly, but overall they are operating at a surplus I think?

e.g. 2023 had a surplus of 1.2bn.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/government-announces-surplus-of-e1-2-billion-in-2023-1571811.html

23-02-2024 10:06AM

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bigroad · 23-02-2024 10:07AM

Yes we are on the line for 250 billion so instead of paying some dept down they give billions away .

The only money they have to burn is loan money.

Too many unqualified people in the wrong positions who have got jobs through family and friends.

Feisar · 23-02-2024 10:08AM

I thought our lads being good lil' boys and girls in Europe was to make sure they got cushy jobs after their runs here? A friend of mine reckons that in general politicians are bought by "globalists" and there is a drive for neo feudalism. Who these lads pulling the strings are I don't know however it sort of makes sense when you look at the levels of immigration allowed. A governments 1st priority is supposed to be it's citizens. How is general immigration a benefit to us? We should only be taking people with qualifications/experience in areas we are short supply of.

Boggles · 23-02-2024 10:09AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806021#Comment_121806021

Sad but true, I think it was Churchill that said the Irish will never be able to run themselves.

lol.

The fúcking state of the country he once was Prime Minister of. A country who are literally in recession and an empire which is crumbling.

He was a gas píss head.

Is this the type of fúcking lunatic Ireland needs?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-68376802

blackbox · 23-02-2024 10:10AM

It's just as well that were in the EU.

growleaves · 23-02-2024 10:12AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806021#Comment_121806021

I disagree and I'll explain why.

In 1922 people still had the example of the bad governance of the Famine and the mismanagement of the relief effort fresh in their minds. There would have been people still around who had lived through it as children. This did a lot to help create the impetus for self-government.

Today people have this hazy perception of British excellence and efficiency but don't know a huge amount about pre-1922 Ireland. Plays like Sebastian Barry's The Steward of Christendom arguably help create nostalgia for British Ireland.

There were scandals that are totally forgotten now. Such as a Police Commisioner in Dublin being convicted for stealing furniture out of Store Street Police Station (as it was then known) in 1918. Dublin Corporation had a bad reputation for corruption in the 1900s and 1910s.

Sackville St (O'Connell St) was more violent a hundred years ago than it is now. It even had traffic accidents of a kind: occasionally a horse would get loose and trample someone to death.

A deep dive into history would reveal more examples, I believe.

It is tempting for Irish people to buy into the stereotype of Irish as lesser or incapable, but I think we should consciousy put that into perspective with the mundane reality of the shortcomings of British (and EU) governance.

bucketybuck · 23-02-2024 10:12AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806040#Comment_121806040

You think a surplus of 1.2b makes all the staggering waste elsewhere ok? Would you not have preferred a surplus more than 1.2b?

Thats just the attitude the OP is hinting at, "we have a few quid so **** odds about everything we wasted".

Case in point, that surplus you are so proud of wouldn't even cover the overrun in costs for the childrens hospital. Imagine that, the hospital build is so out of control its overrun is more than a wealthy countrys entire budget surplus.

But this is Ireland. And its not enough to blame the government, because governments everywhere are just a reflection of the people who put them there.

magicbastarder · 23-02-2024 10:13AM

is this not the typical irish exceptionalism? we're worse than anywhere else?

are people on boards.uk starting thread like 'are the british fit to be let at the controls?' after the UK post office scandal? the PPE scandal? WMDs and the dodgy dossier? etc.

Boggles · 23-02-2024 10:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806059#Comment_121806059

I thought our lads being good lil' boys and girls in Europe was to make sure they got cushy jobs after their runs here?

Complete myth, very few Irish politicians over the years go on to have "cushy jobs" in the EU, although it would be a natural progression because the EU is political. Also we need to get away from this notion that politics isn't a job, it's s calling. Complete bollix.

It's a line that gets thrown out quite often but doesn't stack up when placed under any scrutiny.

The idea that Ireland are subservient to EU is also a myth, the EU has rules, directives, etc that each country signs up for. It's how it works.

The notion that we roll over for the EU is complete bollix, see the Apple case for an example.

Ireland internationally could be described as a cute whore.

We need to be. The 80s are not coming back, primarily because they were horrible.

That sort of noise only distracts from the problems that face Ireland, which are not unique in any sense.

eightieschewbaccy · 23-02-2024 10:27AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806040#Comment_121806040

Plus that postal service scandal over there.

gmisk · 23-02-2024 10:29AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806077#Comment_121806077

Exactly

gmisk · 23-02-2024 10:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806140#Comment_121806140

Ah it's really take your pick on the old corruption front in UK, how many MPs suspended for dodgy dealings (that Freeport one is mad when you read details) alleged sexual assault etc.

_Kaiser_ · 23-02-2024 10:35AM

So essentially a lot of the feedback so far is "we're no different than X, because Y" - that's fair enough, but is that the low bar we're then happy to accept? Or as I put it above:

Is it why there's an air of resignation and again "can't someone else do it" to the ideas of REAL reform, REAL change and improvement to how this country is run? (Too many would "lose out" if it was?)

Personally I think we shouldn't be measuring ourselves against the problems in other countries. America is a mess, the UK definitely has a lot of problems (though at least their politicians generally resign/are forced to quit rather than just go quiet for a few weeks when things get untenable), but is this the level we're at?

Are we incapable of doing better? If so, why?

artanevilla · 23-02-2024 10:36AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806021#Comment_121806021

I think what Churchill said can be boiled down to "Stupid Paddys".

A prominent racist.

Former Former Former · 23-02-2024 10:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806077#Comment_121806077

it’s just typical moaning cnuts on the internet tbh

We live in one of the safest, richest countries in the world, with individual freedoms and prospects that 90% of the planet can only dream about.

That didn’t happen by accident. It happened because Irish people were “at the controls”

enricoh · 23-02-2024 10:43AM

Government spending was up 17% last year, and they say sinn fein (who I'm no fan of) have a magic money tree! Tax intake was up 5%, seems the corporation tax Klondike is drying up too.

I honestly think we are incapable of governing ourselves, might be best to ask imf back before we are even further in the hole with another giveaway election budget!

magicbastarder · 23-02-2024 10:44AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806172#Comment_121806172

i don't think that by refuting your 'the irish are incapable' point, that people were trying to say 'that's fine so', to be fair.

though i did used to joke with my german boss and other continental european colleagues that irish politicians were probably secretly delighted with brexit because it made them look incredibly sensible and capable compared to the tories.

whisky_galore · 23-02-2024 10:49AM

The Shur Twill be Grand mindset has served us poorly. It's the reason why we can't plan our way out of a wet paper bag with anything: housing, social problems, transport, health, ad infinitum. A knee jerk reaction when things finally get out of hand and cannot be hidden anymore: see garda reaction to anti social behaviour.

A marked reluctance to hold hands up when a mistake is made; hide, duck, deflect, blame others, pull a sickie. Gets worse the further up the ladder they are. Do anything but come clean.

Self-serving and self-interest: maybe something to do with a legacy of poverty, but find people here, high up and low down greedy and grasping. Objecting to a development within an asses roar from them, just because. Willing to kill the goose that lays the golden egg (circling back to point 1) Claim compo for a playground injury, council removes playground to avoid further claims.

_Kaiser_ · 23-02-2024 10:51AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806195#Comment_121806195

I think you're listening a little too much to the press releases...

"we live in one of the safest" - not so much if you look at the violence almost daily on O'Connell Street, the surge in drug-driving etc.

"richest" - on paper maybe thanks to FDI. In reality we entered recession again last year and the cost of living crisis seems no sign of abating.

"individual freedoms and prosepects that 90% of the planet can only dream about" - well that would explain why so many are turning up at our door looking for their share of that opportunity (regardless of whether they're actually entitled to it), but those freedoms will be severely eroded when McEntee gets her (extremely and dangerously vague, not to mention unnecessary) "hate speech" legislation fully enacted.

Look beyond the headlines. Things are far from rosy.

Montage of Feck · 23-02-2024 10:53AM

What's Ajau Chopra up to these days?

z80CPU · 23-02-2024 10:59AM

The blame game seems to be becoming more popular too. A noticeable uptick is noticeable in coverage of incompetence within the HSE by RTE especially, as a subject to deflect all the criticism at point blank range of its own prominent skullduggery

23-02-2024 11:02AM

Are the Americans, the Germans the French, the Italians, the British, the Icelanders, the Chinese, the Japanese ... the list is endless.

There are few (probably no) countries that don't have the odd screw up with stuff like this.

I mean, take a look at the UK ... PPE scandal running into billions, political corruption going on all over the place, a series of disastrous PMs ... HS2... list goes on and on .. and on.

France, loads of political corruption scandals, massive cost overruns on various projects, had to abolish the public broadcaster and start again at least twice over the years due to numerous issues around finances, trust and so on. and don't get me started on the nuclear power plant. It makes the national children's hospital seem like it was delivered on budget and in time.

Flamenville 3 was budgeted at 3 billion Euro and to be delivered by 2012. It's currently forecast to be connected in March 2024 and cost at least €13 billion.

The SNCF bought 2000 train carriages, for about €15 billion, only to discover that they didn't fit the station platforms and then had to rebuild 1000 train station platforms....

The US .. where do you even start! Basically everything - their entire governmental system has effectively imploded.

Yeah, RTE's a mess and there are a few other things, but can we just act like grown ups and fix the problems rather than going into this weird post colonial self-loathing nonsense.

JVince · 23-02-2024 11:02AM

Does the OP really think other countries don't have similar levels of incompetence in public service.

UK - HS2 Rail is the big one, but read Private Eye and it literally is eyewatering the level of incompetence in the UK. And the Germans are not much better - look up the CumEx scandal where tens of millions of taxes were wiped out with support of high ranking politicians.

ELM327 · 23-02-2024 11:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806064#Comment_121806064

At least Churchill lived in Ireland for several years so he could somewhat have an opinion here. He was always rumored to be vaguely pro reunification (and also offered this to Dev during the war as a return for Ireland joining on the side of the allies), so he's all good in my book.

We do need some sort of guidance, not from modern UK anyway, but the EU rules are keeping us somewhat in check. I'd much prefer if we stopped burning money and instead paid down some debt.

pgj2015 · 23-02-2024 11:14AM

No, definitely not. A lot of people too lazy to do their job in Ireland, its a joke, then if you ask them to do their job they act like you are annoying them.

im talking from personal experience here of the Guards and co councils.

23-02-2024 11:20AM

Churchill was an old imperial supremacist. His reputation was rescued by his performance during WWII, but his opinions on Ireland are about as relevant as Punch Magazine.

RobbieTheRobber · 23-02-2024 11:41AM

Are the boards irish conspiracy theorists now simping over feckin churchill. A feckin genuine imperialist all the while whining about globalists.

You genuinely couldn't write this stuff as a comedy because people would call it too far fetched.

These folks are the real patriots too they will claim 🤣🤣🤣

23-02-2024 11:54AM

For me the fact that the Irishes very wealth is build on the corrupt practice of tax avoidance by the super wealthy is indicative of a corrupt national mentality. Few will call it out as corruption most will see it as clever cute whorism on the rest of the world.

There's a thing vaneer of respectability over a corruption that goes to the very core of the nation.

It starts at the village pump favouring and ends at the Galway tent brown enveloping. It infects every organ of the state.

Are the Irish fit to be let at the controls?

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