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63A main panel fuse blows if power outage occurs

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 417 ✭✭Doolittle51


    It must be a combination of things causing the issue. You said the fuse blew when you had all mcbs off? A fuse can't blow if there's no path for the current to flow.

    With that in mind, one possible scenario is reverse polarity. But there would also have to be a N-E fault within the property (quite possible) and some weird short happening momentarily in the meter when power is restored.

    Some of the cheap plug in socket testers will identify reverse polarity, and can also identify N-E faults on socket circuits. Would be an easy thing to check yourself if you can get your hands on one.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    OK, that's a bit confused, he's not saying to me he won't come out, not at all, but he's saying that with the known issue of meters hopping fuses, there's no advantage him coming out until the meter has been sorted, and with the description of the fault, (we had a LONG chat about it here a couple of days ago, he fitted an EV charger here for me last week), his friend in ESB said that it's a very much known issue, and there won't be a fault on the consumer side of things, so we're better holding fire until ESB have been out, and he will be surprised if there'a an issue after they've been out, given the history.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    So did this problem of fuses blowing after a power cut only start happening after the smart meter was installed ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    A problem with the smart meter theory is the below

    When you changed the second fuse you weren't switching in any load on the smart meter but the fuse blew

    There was effectively no change on the load side of meter




    "after the first fuse blew on Friday, before the second fuse was switched in, ALL the MCB's were switched off, so in theory, nothing live or connected, and despite that precaution, the second fuse blew instantly"



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    yes, there was never an issue in the previous 20 years, and it's only become significant after the scheduled outage last friday, there's been 6 fuses blown since, three of them getting the power back on after they restored it, and this morning, it went with one TV and a light on, no other loads active. Another electrician suggested that it was a smart meter related issue when the first fuse blew not long after it was fitted, but it's not been a major issue until the weekend,

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,800 ✭✭✭meercat


    I wonder if they upgraded the main neutral/earth link whilst replacing the meter. Did they replace the cutout also. This may mean a better earth in your installation,causing a fuse to blow where beforehand it wouldn’t

    a loop impedance test along with an insulation resistance test should be done



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    6 fuses blown since the outage ?

    I believe it's not smart meter related based on the post above this one

    I'd get a rec and check installation, voltages etc , and also look at possible esbn issues (?)



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    the REC contact in ESB did specifically mention that this is one of the symptoms of the meter fault, and yes, I too found it slightly incredible, as you say in theory, nothing is flowing, nothing is connected, but if they are saying that's what's happening, I'm not about to argue with the people who are a lot closer to this than I am.

    It's been a while since I was working with stuff like this, it was a very long time ago now, we had a site in the UK that got wired with a non standard socket, to prevent cleaners removing the plug to use it for their vacuum, as it was a small computer that ran 24/5, only off over weekends, and on this particular site, it was wired in MICC, for fire reasons, and it worked with no issues for 3 years, then one weekend, it didn't start up correctly on Monday, so we got called in, and spent several days trying to work out why it wasn't working and back then, if we didn't fix it in a couple of days, the bank would ship in a replacement terminal to get them going again.

    We set the new unit up out in the back room, got it all working, and then swapped the machines over, and as part of that, swapped the plug over to allow it to be connected in the right location, pressed the on button, and the replacement machine failed in exactly the same way as the original, at which point, we were in to investigating the socket, and we found that the spark that fitted it hadn't put in one essential short piece of wire, the MICC gland terminated the cable in the metal box, but he hadn't put a wire from the box terminal on to the effectively floating earth pin in the plastic insulated socket, so the earth was floating, and the computer depended on having a viable earth, and without it, the ground voltage floated up to about +2.5v, so the logic systems that depended on zero or plus 5 were all getting horribly confused. The issue was that without changing anything, or moving anything, it had worked for 3 years like that. The fix was easy, the spark came in and fitted the piece of wire that should have been there from day 1, and it all worked perfectly. as did the machine that was out in the back office. The exact reason was never determined, and we'd not been given any reason to suspect the power in that it had been signed off on install, and had worked perfectly for 3 years. Since then, I've been open to listen to all possible theories about reasons for a fault ,because sometimes, even though they come out of left base, they're right.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    The most logical explanation is still an issue at the board



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  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bruthal.


    It is like saying a fuse is connected to the incoming phase via the smart meter and the other side of the fuse is connected to nothing, and yet the fuse is blowing due to some strange meter problem. It would be an interesting explanation as to where the current required to blow the fuse, is going.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    indeed, I tried to get my head around it when it was being explained, but it defeated me, but apparently, whatever is causing it has been seen more than a few times now, which is why the ESB man said to give networks a call to get the meter changed, internally it is a well known issue, I can well believe that they're not shouting about it to even the trade, given the hassle that it causes, but if it means that normality is restored to the house, then I'm happy for now, and when we know the fuse issue is stable, that's when we get the rest of it checked out just in case, the ESB man was apparently very clear that there have been no faults found on the other places, it is something very strange, and I'd have to agree with that, 50 plus years of working with complex electronics and I can't see how an open circuit with no load connected can blow a large fuse, but that's what's been happening somehow.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    "I can't see how an open circuit with no load connected can blow a large fuse, but that's what's been happening somehow"


    That's not been happening

    It's simply not possible



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭Antenna


    Yes, maybe a loose screw or nail or something other conductive debris has fallen in to the consumer unit through cable entry and is sometimes managing to short out across L and N or L and E.

    Get someone remove cover of consumer unit and see if any such debris is there?

    If the smart meter was to blame it would blow the ESB fuse, not the consumer fuse. Whoever suspected the meter has probably misunderstood which fuse is blowing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,770 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bruthal.


    So how would an open ended fuse operate then, supplied by a quasar perhaps?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bruthal.


    A Presumption based on theories and probably through 20 people passing on stories. Strange things can happen with electrical systems for sure. But still astonishing an REC hears that, and thats it, problem solved without even looking, and concluding there cant be any fault in the installation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    I don't believe a word of it

    I'd be sceptical of that RECs competency

    I didn't write off the smart meter tripping nearby RCDs because i don't understand the subject enough to do so

    This seems more straightforward and "highly implausible"

    Also the smart meter causing a downstream fuse inserted into an open-circuit to blow is "impossible" , assuming all circuits were actually open



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Guys, right now, I need to defend the REC that's been involved, and from the outset, I will say very clearly. he has NOT refused to come out and look at this, he has said that he was advised by his ESB friend who he was working with on a joint project at a medium voltage site that there was a known issue with smart meters from a specific manufacturer, and that until the meter had been checked out, and most likely exchanged, there was very little liklihood of finding a fault on this installation, so his position was very simple, he could indeed come out, but on the basis of the very clear advice he'd been given, it might be a non productive visit and not a good use of limited resources. I respect that.

    No, I'm not a REC, simply because at nearly 73, I'm not likely to get approved by any of the certification bodies here in Ireland, and even if I could, the cost of the essential test gear and the mandatory insurances would mean I'd have to work all the hours of the day and night to pay for it all, and that's not where I'm at these days, I don't want to be chasing my tail all over the place any more.

    I did all my training way before companies handed out a piece of paper to prove you'd been on a specific course, it was of course in your personnel record, and the brutal reality 50 years ago was that if you didn't achieve a reasonable standard during the course you were sent on, then your future with the company was likely to be under a cloud, or even terminated, I was working with a major company that was very well known for mechanical accounting machines, and 50 years ago, they started introducing electronic computing style sytems, and we had to both install and maintain them, and some of them used a lot of power in those days, and we had to do it without much of the sort of equipment that's taken for granted now.

    50 years ago, the rules that applied to things like gas and electricity were very different, and as long as the inspector of the utility was happy with the tests they did when they came out to connect to their supply, they were happy, and you knew they could, and did, do specific checks, and more, when they came out, and there was no point in trying to pull the wool over their eyes, they knew very quickly how to recognise sub standard work, they could usually spot it within seconds of starting their checks, and they were very rarely wrong. I did all the gas work, and all the electical work on the house we bought, gutted and renovated, with no issues, and if the system here was not so anal, I'd probably have tried to become recognised 25 years ago when some of the more serious restrictions came in, but there were just too many petty restrictions that made it very hard to join what was becoming a very restrictive club, they wanted proof of courses attended, and that wasn't available, and in the end, it wasn't worth the fight.

    When it was still legal, I did the electrical fit out of several bare shell retail units for my daughter, all of which were happily signed off by the ESB inspector, and some of the work here at my own home on the 3 phase systems that related to the computer area and standby generator were down to me, and signed off after a very detailed inspection by a senior manager from ESB Swords, he came out because automatic changeover generators were rare in a small user setting, so he wanted to see it first hand, and be absolutely certain that all the rules about ensuring no way to back feed up to 50KVa into the network were being completely complied with, and he was happy with what he saw, so I will say it as I see it, while I can't legally get involved with the single phase domestic stuff, that doesn't mean I don't know what's going on, and right now, what's happening in Duleek defies logic, but if someone from ESB gives us a specific pointer that suggests a specific issue with the meter, even though I don't fully understand the 'how', I'm not about to argue, I've done what we were asked to do, which is to get ESBN involved, and when I rang them yesterday, I didn't have to push too hard to get them to put it in to the sytem for checking, the call centre operative did put me on hold while he spoke with an adviser, and they didn't throw the issue out as impossible, so that's where we're at for now, and I don't know how long it will take, or what their exact plan is.

    When I have specific news, I will update this thread, whatever the outcome.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,800 ✭✭✭meercat


    Post a photo of the specific meter or inform us of the brand/model if possible for future reference.


    im not surprised esbn take any reports of a fault seriously because if they don’t investigate and there is an issue and someone is hurt or a fire ,then they are liable


    i think any competent rec would have called to test the installation to rule out any issues on the consumer side first though.

    Appreciate you keeping us informed on the outcome either way



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    6 main fuses blown recently i think he said ?

    I wouldn't be hanging about .I'd be ringing round to get an inspection done



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,063 ✭✭✭Cerco


    IMHO if the meter is to blame then it must be generating significant voltage spikes when the power is switched back on after an outage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    I think there is a Walter Mitty element at play here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,868 ✭✭✭Buffman


    I have to LOL at a long time Mod getting called a Walter! Even a quick Google shows it's not unheard of for 'smart' meters to be causing issues with fuses/RCDs.

    Keep us updated Steve, be interesting to see how it pans out. 👍️

    FYI, if you move to a 'smart' meter electricity plan, you CAN'T move back to a non-smart plan.

    You don't have to take a 'smart' meter if you don't want one, opt-out is available.

    Buy drinks in 3L or bigger plastic bottles or glass bottles or cartons to avoid the DRS fee.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,770 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    I am just saying that SMs are new so new thinking required rather than the old nail and tin foil solution!!

    Keep well

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Thats the plan, and I will update, regardless of how it pans out, it's way outside of anything I've seen or heard of, but stranger things have been seen over the years.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bruthal.


    Well, a new line of thinking is certainly needed if a new type of meter can interrupt/operate a downstream 63A fuse which is (if we have switched all circuits off) open circuited, apart from a remotely possible DB flex link wiring problem.

    And if all circuits are on, some serious thinking is needed to solve why a 63 amp fuse is blowing, while 10 amp mcbs etc connected to it, don't, if no faults in the installation are present.

    Therefore, in my possibly uninformed methodology, I would be checking the wiring from the main fuse to the other areas of the DB as my first checks. Not simply dismissing it because the ESB says don't worry, it's simply the new type meter causing a new type of problem, and you won't find any other problem.

    Of course, we might hear of some unusual almost unheard of reason that surprises those who analyse such things, and those that just accept what they are told is the reason, won't be surprised I'd guess.

    But I'd still be doing the standard checks that cause blowing main fuses, if it was an installation I had anything to do with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    What does google say ?

    I'm open-minded on the smart meter tripping nearby RCD phenomenon atm .

    The smart meter blowing main fuses theory

    Everything I know tells me it didn't happen

    Maybe it's the Russians or the Chinese attacking domestic electricity supplies😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,063 ✭✭✭Cerco


    No update yet from Op. I would have thought that ESBN would have been out to check the meter by now. Op, are they aware now that you have an issue and have they responded?

    However if the meter was causing spikes , these may have damaged the consumer unit. This might explain the fuses blowing when the mcbs were switched off (I assume this includes the rcd). Therefore, as others have recommended, the board needs to be checked out. If your rec gives the board a clean bill of health then you will have good cause to start pursuing ESBN for an early resolution. All you have at the moment is a questionable rumour. I would have it checked for safety as well as peace of mind. Op you are clearly concerned about this so why wait till something else happens. The only action you can take straight away is to get the consumer unit/installation checked out.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    EsbN are aware, and supposed to be coming out to check, but as of now, they've not been to it, and I've had more than enough on my plate due to unrelated issues here with the OPW flood scheme that's been driving us to distraction recently, and as they're not having problems at the moment, it's not been a high priority.

    If we don't hear back from EsbN in the next week or so, I suspect I'm going to end up calling them, to see what they are planning to do.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    You've suspended reality and are waiting on ESBN to fix this issue



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,754 ✭✭✭Tow


    You cannot change the laws of physics. :-)

    I thought the ESBN would not make an appearance until the issue was checked by an electrician. I await their findings...

    It takes a lot of current to instantly blow a 63A fuse, a good bit more than 63 amps.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    The smart meter blowing fuses is the nail and tin hat solution

    Just saying for accuracy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,618 ✭✭✭John.G



    If not a "short circuit" then a 60A fuse will take well over 80A for ever and 100A for ~ 17 minutes, if this chart is any way accurate.

    MCB tripping curves as well below.



    Post edited by John.G on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Smart meters tripping rcds is apparently correct

    Smart meters blowing 6 main fuses

    No



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,871 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    @Irish Steve, did you make any progress with this interesting scenario?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Unfortunately not, it's been crazy busy here at home here, with a lot of OPW work going on to finish the flood scheme (at last), and since the original couple of days with significant issues, there's been nothing happening on that front at all, no trips, no fuses blowing, it's gone back to the situation it was before the change to the supply, and I won't get chance to follow up with ESB until after Easter now, we're going away for a few days to visit family in the UK, and I don't want to rock the boat with them until I can spend the time on it that's needed, and review what they've found, it's possible they did monitor things without calling my daughter, nothing's been said recently.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    You're wasting your time following it up with esbn

    I wouldn't have left it this long if it was me and 6 blown main fuses apparently



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