Why wont die hard GAA fans admit football these days is muck?

Now that Jar. is at the wheel, we won’t have to count handpasses, of course the handpass will still be there but in a more sensible way.

Less chance of a borefest with wise sages with notebooks on the sideline marveling at “player movement” while the ball moves back and sideways.

Hope they sort out the tackle too, or lack of it. Beats running into the tackler ,falling down and getting a free.

He can drop it…release it bit like rugby

Yeah I see what you mean it was maverick individuals rather than a more collectivised approach we see today. Kevin Heffernan in the "roving forward" role is probably one of the earliest examples I can think of that moved away from static 15 positions.

I think part of it took so long for football to move on and evolve was because of it's very traditional nature. You would be ostracised by even thinking of implementing basketball/rugby style movements.

`john O'Leary in his book said that he fell out with Mickey Whelan, but later realised Whelan was too far ahead of his time. Whelan tried to implement sports science type of ideas he learnt in America.

But nowadaways even fella's such as Waterford hurling man Derek McGrath have started using the phrase the American "learnings". An annoying phrase but it shows to me that GAA people are more open to what other sports are doing willing to learn, progress develop and evolve.

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To be honest the main thing I would like to see from that Gaelic Football Committee/Taskforce (or whatever it is called) is the scrapping of the advanced mark, it did not does not work.

It will be interesting to see what proposals they come up with, because Jarlath Burns would be more of a GAA traditionalist and Jim Gavin would be more of a GAA revolutionary. Interesting combination.

Very rarely I would say, Bringing the ball into the tackle is the cause of a lot of the pulling and dragging and hence frees.

I would the onus should be the ball carrier to release the ball . Be more conductive to an open game.

The Tyrone tactic wasn’t it…. Hopefully the committee on the rules will clean it up a bit

I must have been very lucky. I was at 2 games out of the 64 in the League so far. And both were good games. What are the chances of that?

I know my stats are very scant compared to someone who saw all 64. And who watches loads of junior football and underage. But if I had figured out that there is only a 3% chance of seeing something worth watching, I would avoid that activity.

Ah! Thar that explains it, you are going in with a negative premise straight away. And are basing your opinions from a distance. With preconceived notions.

I have already given you long and detailed numerous examples. The long post I gave which referred to the Dublin v Tyrone all ireland Semi-Final 2017 for example, where I pointed out how movement and intelligence can overcome a team who sits back and refused to go forward.

You mention you go league of Ireland games, so I assume you watched Ireland games under Kenny. Why were the majority dull, because the players did not have the still or confidence to go for a forward pass, it was possession for possession sake. Easy to defend against and so on. It is the same if teams play a direct style and lamp it for the sake of it. that becomes tedious as well.

Good players and good teams have awareness of what is around them regardless of style of play.

Of the two games you picked above 2014 v SF v Donegal and 2022 v AIF v Kerry. I was at both live. I was at them. I enjoyed both games.

This is all from the top of my head.

The 2014 game was the reason why football evolved to where it is today, Dublin were shooting the lights out from range in the early opening period (as Donegal blocked the main scoring zone. Dublin naively thought they could blast Donegal out of it. Donegal played possession football and were heavily reliant on the hand pass with a running game.

Donegal then were eventually able to play a counter attacking style and wore Dublin down. C. Toye who came on as sub for Donegal (Grey hair and all) destroyed Dublin on the counter. It was an attritional type of game, It still annoys me that Gavin left Dennis Bastick on the bench for Dublin. I don't even want to rewatch that one if I am honest! Dublin were tactically naive and Donegal did a number on Dublin. Worse still Kerry won Sam that year. Horrible year!

The 2022 game it was a tactical game, Kerry were sore from the 2019 games so changed tact. Context is crucial. That game was one where both teams were trying to psyche each other out.

But there was still some lovely football in game, Costello's goal, Gannon's opening score from corner back after some quick interchange. Kerry's goal was poor from a Dublin point of view they let it bounce in the square. But O'Shea gathered it well and showed composure to finish. and of course he showed excellent technique in his final free to win the match. I knew the fecker would get it, he is known for it.

The game was extremely tense after Costello's goal it was anyone's game from then.

If you want to see good recent Dublin v Kerry games both with Dublin doing a high press - I would look at 2019 AI final first game (Dublin a man down for a lot of it, I already posted a tactical analysis of in another post) and Dublin's last league game v Kerry last weekend. Great stuff.

In the league game there was some good scores from range from Fenton for example, and Con O'Callaghan gave a masterclass of the running game of football. Dublin's movement overall was top tier - Kerry could not cope. I don't know did you watch it at all? It is still on the TG4 player.

I was at the game and watched highlights. But the game was that good I think I am going to watch the full match again. It was not just the result, but the manner/style of play. I must have said "magic" about five or six times at the match. Kerry fought back a bit making it edgey. But Dublin showed the nous to pull away again.

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I am really curious now what county do you support that you think football is so poor? Is it Dublin? Because if you support Dublin in football and STILL don't like the game., It might just not be for you. Because Dublin are a team which show the most variation in their of all the teams in the country. The best off the ball movement by far as well when on top form.

I would be the same as you are with Gaelic football now with Rugby, I try to watch it but for whatever reason I cannot get into it really. Watch the odd 'big' game to see what the craic is. NZ v Ireland WC. Or maybe a Six Nations decider but that is about it. All on the telly. I have not been to a live Rugby match in years. France Ireland maybe - one big French lump Bastereud came off/on and another big lump came off/on. Rugby can be a very tactical game and it is very hard to see what is going on. Not much seems to happen for very long periods all the rucks and mauls etc.

Your point on watching a game live in the ground v on telly is a good point. At a live game you get to see tactical movement. Even if a match is not competitive you get to see the tactics teams are trying to do - Dublin v Louth Leinster final last year for example. The best vantage point for that is probably the Canal/Davin end near where they serve drink - glass in front

If you are watching a game on telly you might think sure they are going from side to side for no reason, but the good sides are constantly probing looking for angles and showing movement. The attacking side in possession if skilful enough pushes right up on the opponent, trying to force an error. Or get in the scoring zone. To me gaelic

I find that an odd premise as the key to Donegal's success was possession football relying heavily on the handpass, forcing Dublin to engage and Donegal winning the turnover and breaking.

Here is a (surprisingly good) piece of tactical analysis from Joe Brolly on Donegal's system written on the 16th September 2014 after that 2014 match. It was from the vantage point of the Davin/Canal end I mentioned earlier where you can see the positioning of the players.

"Donegal's is a style of play that has a smothering effect on the opposition; an operation where all involved know exactly what they are doing as the route to goal is shut off and the counter-attack is characterised by hard running."

"The process was evolving and in 2012, Donegal, as a force, were more purposeful in attack. The county's 20-year wait for an All-Ireland title was at an end."

"Two years on, we wondered whether Jimmy's system could still reap dividends? It did to telling effect against Dublin three weeks ago."

"Of course, the narrative would have been different if Dublin had converted two decent goal chances in the first half. How would the master plan have worked if Donegal were facing a substantial scoring difference after 20 minutes?"

"One can only wonder, but the Ulster side eventually went on to gain a crucial foothold in the semi-final clash."

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In my opinion game was less about hand pass v kick pass but one teams tactical system of play which was superior on the day. The objective was not to allow Dublin possession in danger areas, force Dublin to take shots from range (which are unsustainable), win back possession keep the ball and break quickly.

It was a question of kick passing = good. handpassing = bad. That is a childish premise in my view and shows limited tactical analysis of what happens in games.

If anything the 2014 game proved that handpassing when done correctly, mixed with a running game, aimed to counter it is very effective against teams who just want to attack with no real plan.

Ironically, the Gavin initiative is being informed by statistics. People actually counted handpasses and other aspects of the play. But like I said before, he can't come up with some of the radical proposals seen on this thread. Because the players won't stand for that sort of interference with they way they want to play the game. Burns is already showing himself as being someone who will pass on decisions on stuff like this to others like Gavin. Which I would do as well if I knew I was in a job which is going to last only three years.

The stats do show an increase in hand passes, but they were still a significant element of the game in the past. One very positive stat is how much longer the ball is in play in the modern game. Must be due to a lot of kick passes going over the sideline in the past, and shots from distance going wide, with the delays that follow. Possession play keeps the ball in the field of play much longer.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2023/0928/1407954-new-study-outlines-stark-extent-of-possession-football/

"The average number of hand passes per game has increased from 251 in 2011 to 421 in this year's (2023) championship. Despite the increase in hand passing, there has not been a comparable slide in foot passing. While kicking was on the decrease from 2011 to 2018, it has started to level off at approximately 130 passes per game."

"The ball was in play for an average of 34 minutes in the 2011 season and now stands at 45 minutes, 30 seconds, a 32% increase over 13 seasons."

In the preview in the programme Meath v Louth, the commentator wrote this:

"Ger Brennan has been very vocal in his opinion that a goalkeeper's main role is to be at home minding the house, and under his stewardship to date Louth have reverted to having a more traditional type of goalkeeper in the side in comparison to how the side operated under the reign of Mickey Harte, when players more noted for their outfield abilities lined out between the sticks. Niall McDonnell from the St Fechins club has come in this season and was in superlative form against Cork, and to further illustrate that Louth have reverted to traditional type in terms of goalkeepers, Craig Lynch has returned to the panel in recent weeks after being away from the inter-county scene in the past couple of years."

Indeed the Louth keeper did mostly stay at home in the Navan game. Whereas the Meath keeper played the modern role. But whatever learnings / takeaways * Brennan got from that defeat for Louth, in the Ardee game v Cavan, the keeper spent a lot of his time up the field, and well into the oppositon half. You can't believe half of what you read these days.

*Apologies to gormdubhgorm for the "learnings". I must be some sort of misfit who enjoys seeing innovations in language useage, as well as in football😃

Some lad on the Sports News this morning talking about 'Possessional Football' and 'Transitional Football'. I was puzzled as I thought they were discussing Gaelic Football.

*Apologies to gormdubhgorm for the "learnings". I must be some sort of misfit who enjoys seeing innovations in language useage, as well as in football

You are not wrong.

That stuff with the wall would be good traning for GAA Handball, which uses courts with walls. Probably not so much for the other Handball which is a bit like basketball, but with goals and goalkeepers instead of hoops. Either way, you can't rename GAA football into Handball, even if that would make you happy. There are plenty of training routines for GAA footballers to hone their hand passing techniques, without using walls. Keep watching the fooball if you can abide the horror.

I don't know whether to take this story seriously. Marty Clarke to return to county football with Down as a goalkeeper, in the sweeper keeper mode. The goalkeeper position is certainly becoming more important in modern football. I can't see the players taking any diktats from on high trying to force them to revert to old norms.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2024/0305/1436053-clarke-in-line-for-shock-down-return-as-a-goalkeeper/

Nobody wants to see anyone "kicking aimlessly" crusty?

But if restrictions on handpassing were introduced and nothing was done to free up space that is what would happen. And the rewards for ultra defensive tactics would increase

You would see more kicking for a purpose.

As you should have see if you had time to read this thread, my opinion is that the handpass and its excesses have seriously diminished the game.

Kicking a football “aimlessly” is kicking i o ver the side,line, trying to find a teammate with a kick is not “kicking aimlessly”.

Lofting a ball into the square is not “kicking aimlessly “ its giving your attackers a chance to gain possession in a dangerous zone.

This business of both sets of players trundling back and forth after 20 or 30 handpasses is for the birds.

I see your point and it’s a valid one but I take issue with “kicking aimlessly”.

Yet another enjoyable weekend of football.

But something something 37 handpasses in a row yada yada all defending etc.

Forcing a kickpass into a massed defence is the very opposite of kicking for a purpose.

Forcing players to kick when nobody is free is the very opposite of kicking for a purpose.

If you want the GAA to embrace the bugger factor and introduce a randomness into attacking play then say that, but launching a long ball and hoping the break falls your way is nothing to do with "purpose".