Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Palestine has to be party in recognizing a third party to manage a demilitarized zone between the 2 countries, it is not accurate to say I didn't suggest anything else they should do.

Israeli terrorism must also end. Settle violence is a significant part of what sparked the attack in the first place. Settlers are routinely backed, directly and indirectly by IDF forces, the Knesset, and Supreme Court of Israel. The sides have to agree to ceasefire, release hostages, open the path for a 2 state solution and appoint a 3rd party to enforce the space between the two so one can not illegally settle on the other, and the other can not launch attacks into the other.

"Hmmm, were they actually bothered by what was/is going on in the WB?"

Yes, according to their own prepared, 16 page statement.

In part:

"In light of the ongoing Israeli aggression on the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, and as our people continue their battle for independence, dignity and breaking-free from the longest-ever occupation during which they have drawn the finest displays of bravery and heroism in confronting the Israeli murder machine and aggression. We would like to clarify to our people and the free peoples of the world the reality of what happened on Oct. 7, the motives behind, its general context related to the Palestinian cause, as well as a refutation to the Israeli allegations and to put the facts into perspective."

Exhibits contradict the assertion that it united Israel:

If that's what a United Israel looks like, I'd sure hate to see them divided.

I would contend that your opinions are based on sand if they presuppose for instance that Israel is united.

A majority of the Israeli public *does not* support continuing the war.

"A load of PR guff intended for a gullible international audience."

It seems like you won't find any evidence acceptable to demonstrate they are "actually bothered" by what happens in the West Bank, so I'll leave you to your unwashed opinion.

Then you agree with me.

Palestinians should move on from violence, stop supporting armed resistance, and groups like Hamas and try and forge a new way.

There is a certain amount of denialism when we talk about the Israeli-Arab/Palestinian issue.

Israel is winning and has won over the past few decades. Palestinian leaders for the most part have been woeful and have led their people from disaster to another disaster.

For Palestinians to get something out of their lot, they should look at what they did wrong over the past 75 years, and perhaps follow a new way forward.

Non-violent means is one possibility. You will never defeat Israel using violence and armed struggle. They are willing to put it all on the line to protect their people, which is somewhat understandable given their history. So why continue an armed struggle that will only make things worse for your people?

The above shouldn't be controversial but apparently, it is.

My bad, wrong link

https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-half-of-israelis-say-theyre-let-down-by-war-cabinets-handling-of-hamas-conflict/

Why even ask if Hamas is bothered by the west bank if you're just going to supply your own delusion one way or another

"follow a new way forward.

Non-violent means is one possibility. You will never defeat Israel using violence and armed struggle."

You keep spouting this line yet never elaborate on exactly what you think they should do.

What exactly could the Palestinians do that would make their lives better?

Do you think peaceful protests in Gaza would force the israeli government to open the sea so Palestinians can fish and earn a living?

Do you think peace marches in Khan yunis would force the israelis to allow farmers to sell their goods?

Do you think peace marches in Rafah would force the israelis to end their apartheid policies towards Palestinians?

Do you think peace marches in the west bank would force the israelis to stop settlers murdering Palestinian people?

Do you think peace marches would force the israelis to stop expansion of the illegal settlements and the stealing of Palestinian land and homes?

The reality that any mass protests by Palestinians would result in them being tear gassed and baton charged, Palestinians would reply with stone throwing giving the israelis an excuse to open fire and  kill yet more people as has happened many times in the past.

You keep saying Palestinians should take the non violent position yet you NEVER comment on the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians that cause these flare ups.

Again I'll ask, how much oppression would you stand for before you decided to fight back?

So according to Sinwar, Hamas is "winning"- winning to him is the high number of civilians casualties. As he hides in his tunnels . When they say "we love death"- they mean the deaths of others as we hide away like sewer rats.

Yeah, sure, OK 🙄

So you don't agree with armed resistance, but you also don't agree that the Palestinians should stop armed resistance.

So, what do you think they should do instead? Its like you cant bring yourself to the table honestly and assess the reality of the situation.

Simply because Israel has won and is winning, in general over the last 75 years. They hold all the cards here.

The Arab world is moving on from the Palestinian issue. The Abraham Accords is proof of that.

I've repeated this a few times, so I'll say it once more as I don't want to repeat this to other posters.

Armed resistance and violence are NOT making the lives of the average Palestinians better. I think we can all agree that the clusterfuck in Gaza is proof of this. It's self-evident.

Palestitnians need to forget Jihad and stop supporting groups like Hamas. That would be a good first step.

They need to elect better less corrupt leaders.

They need to realise that the Arab world is losing patience with their 'poor us' mentally.

They need to cut a deal that offers a future for their children.

They also need to compromise, a lot.

They need to stop teaching hate against their Jewish neighbours in schools.

Now if you want a detailed 100-page white paper, sorry, you are not going to get this from me, but I think all the points above are reasonable places to start.

There have been many many instances around the world and throughout history where non-violent struggle worked in changing the world. MLK, Mandela, Gandhi to name a few. I know some of the contrarian types do a 'whatabout this riot..' here as well, but for the most part, those movements were successful in achieving outcomes and they didn't necessitate blowing yourself up on a bus or slaughtering women and kids on farms.

Now, I know there will be loads of 'whatabout' Israel in response to this post, but the fundamental difference is, that Israel is winning this decades-old conflict. I don't absolve them of everything. I stated before that the settlements in the West Bank are a problem, they are unwise and a blocker to peace.

However, something radical needs to shift in the minds of the Palestinians, as we will be talking about this conflict for another 75 years unless it changes.