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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,037 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    No they didn’t - they stated that there were many people whom were worthy of further investigation other than Bailey but hadn’t been examined in the same detail as Bailey for whatever reason



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,243 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    You are allegedly Bridget Chappuis.

    I remain sceptical and don't apologize for reminding sceptical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,243 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    The word facts are in inverted commas because some posters here claimed that Shirley was allowed to drive through the cordon unaccosted to the dump with a boot full of potential evidence.

    That was claimed as a "fact" by some as part of their narrative that Alfie and Shirley had more circumstantial evidence against them than Bailey.

    But since you have posted information that contradicts this "fact" continuation of the use of that narrative has disappeared from these pages.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,243 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Why do you persist in trolling bjsc?

    The previous suggestions were that the gardai may not have looked at the bags forensically and that surely the car shouldn't have been let head off without being checked. Do you have evidence that the bags were checked forensically or were given just a quick glance if even?

    I have no evidence that the poster bjsc is who they claim to be.

    If that's trolling then report me and I'll discuss it with a mod.

    So the goalposts are now moving when it comes to the rubbish.

    We now want to know were they checked forensically.



  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Ms Robini


    Well spotted.



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  • Posts: 0 Evie Fat Pointer


    mod

    discuss the topic, not other posters.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    The posts have not moved. I previously asked whether the bags had been checked in any detail (including by forensic experts) or whether they were given a cursory glance. Feel free to scroll back to find those posts!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Didn't Alfie and Shirley proceed to the dump with bags on the morning of the murder ?

    If so there was no forensic examination as they hadn't arrived by then

    It hardly seems more likely there would be something incriminating in the bags compared to the likelihood of evidence simply being hidden or burnt in open fire etc.

    Weren't the bags simply "hiding in plain sight" in view of gardai ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    All I have ever tried to do is to bring some clarity to the debate and to point out where assertions are backed by facts and where they are not. When I have been asked to provide evidence I have, to the best of my ability, done so. I realise that some people may not like what I have to say but I refuse to indulge in speculation. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and whether I agree or disagree I have never disrespected one of you. So what gives certain people the right to disrespect me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    You think both Alfie and Shirley went to the dump before the forensics arrived?

    Edited



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    And don't forget, they called the gardai while their car was supposedly loaded up with incriminating evidence! Most people have discounted them as suspects, including the gardai. The gardai discounted most of the suspects for one reason or another, provable alibis, etc.

    They focused on Bailey because of a number of incriminating statements, actions and suspicious behaviour before, during and soon after the murder which included giving a false alibi in a questionaire barely a week after the murder, before suddenly remembering the truth 6 weeks later when he heard his original alibi was no longer believed. Not suspicious at all!

    He also admitted to having a feeling the night before to his partner and said this was true in a court case years later before later denying he ever said such a thing. And having a bonfire a couple days after a murder in the locality with clothes and shoes burned. If that doesn't raise suspicion, I don't know what does.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    You will need a thick skin on here, just as an fyi. I would just ignore anyone who questions your authenticity.

    Good interview on the Indo podcast btw, summed the whole thing up nicely, and also pointed out some of the flaws in the original investigation such as establishing Sophie's routine. One question on that, have you any idea what time Sophie generally rose in the morning? Had she an alarm clock, was she an early riser in general?



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    You are assuming they both had to be in on it. One can create a scenario for Alfie being the murderer as plausible as the one the Guards have outlined for Bailey. The point is not to state Alfie did it, but to show how easy it is to make a case against someone based on the same flimsy standard the Guards used against Bailey.

    You are stating as a fact reasons as to why the Gardai discounted certain suspects, when you do not know - and the log of same has been tampered with.

    What was the provable alibi of Karl Heinz Wolney?

    Several of the "suspicious" items you have listed came to light after the Gardai seem to have identified Bailey as a suspect and focused on him. So they can be discounted as reasons for him being focused on, can't they?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    Unfortunately that is one of the questions that absolutely should have been asked but appears not to have been. Although it may be somewhere in the information held by AGS that has never been disclosed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    @bjsc The files you got from Bailey, are these the files the Gardaí passed to the French investigators?

    Was all the evidence just about Bailey, or was there any evidence around other suspects?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,243 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    And having a bonfire a couple days after a murder in the locality with clothes and shoes burned. If that doesn't raise suspicion, I don't know what does.

    Plus there was also ambiguity about the timing of the bonfire.

    Bailey and Thomas said it could not have happened any later than early December.

    But neighbour Delia Jackson said she saw the bonfire when she was home from England at Christmas time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    They are the files that AGS passed to the French Authorities. There is very little about other suspects but that is to be expected as the prosecution was against Ian Bailey. Had he been tried in Ireland he would have been entitled to see everything that the police held. However that did not apply in France.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    And don't forget, they called the gardai while their car was supposedly loaded up with incriminating evidence! Most people have discounted them as suspects, including the gardai. The gardai discounted most of the suspects for one reason or another, provable alibis, etc.

    Most people wouldn't be quite familiar with the details of the case so no point using them as a reference.

    As for Bailey being the only one remaining after others discounted, I don't nbelieve that to be true - unless the reasons for discounting the others weren't all above board!

    They focused on Bailey because of a number of incriminating statements, actions and suspicious behaviour before, during and soon after the murder which included giving a false alibi in a questionaire barely a week after the murder, before suddenly remembering the truth 6 weeks later when he heard his original alibi was no longer believed. Not suspicious at all!

    Bailey didn't give a false alibi - he changed his alibi. Again the DPP was satisfied with this. as I've previously posted, I can barely recall the details of what I was doing a few days ago never mind weeks ago.

    He also admitted to having a feeling the night before to his partner and said this was true in a court case years later before later denying he ever said such a thing. And having a bonfire a couple days after a murder in the locality with clothes and shoes burned. If that doesn't raise suspicion, I don't know what does.

    A feeling means nothing but again, you're incorrect in what he denied - he denied that suggestion put forward (by AGS?) that he had a prophecy.

    The suggeston that his clothes and shoes being burnt in the fire following the murder doesn't stack up when AGS took his coat (AGS made this claim in the DPP report). garda Kevin Kelleher also saw Bailey in this coat a few days later. [I think he also had it on him when he went to/from the swim]



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    Ok. Yes the routine thing would be critical you'd imagine. What time she rose, did she put down a fire most mornings, etc. Its possible she was getting fire wood when attacked, or something like that. We may never know. Establishing a routine seems like detective work 101.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Presumably?

    There was no forensics there that day

    Are you disagreeing or otherwise. ? It can be hard to know with the cryptic responses



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    Ah come on. He gave his first alibi 8 days after the murder which was 2 days after the article he was supposedly working on was published. He faxed in the article so the proof would have been on the fax machine.

    He wasn't put on the spot as in an interview, it was a questionaire. He had plenty of time to consider and check what he was doing. Pretty important when there has been a murder near by.

    8 days after the murder, he can't remember, but 6 weeks later he remembers when put on the spot, and only after his original alibi fell apart. Its almost cartoonish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,037 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    He must have done it so- couldn’t be any more crystal clear than that- guilty as charged - hang em high



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    Why would anyone feel the need to falsify an alibi? You can understand why it raises suspicions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    If someone asked me what I did on a Sunday night 6 weeks ago, I'd struggle. Ask me what I did on a Sunday night 8 days ago, I'd have a much better idea, especially if I had evidence such as a Sunday newspaper article to back it up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc




  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Maybe they falsified it because they thought they were being fit up by corrupt cops.

    Maybe they mis-remembered or just don't remember cos they'd hit the bottle.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,037 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    We’ve been through this 1000 times on this thread - as I said earlier I’m not interested in going over this ground yet again- I’m just hanging around awaiting the next file to be submitted to the DPP or for the Gardai to announce a major breakthrough in the case - there’s no point in quoting me or responding to me- I’m really not interested in bonfires whiskey garbage bags or form filling exercises tracing movements - I’m just interested in the outcome of this current cold case review- that’s all .



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,243 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    But he also misremembered what he did the Saturday night.

    His original statement on the questionare was that he went home after the pub, but he changed that a few days later and then told them he went to Murphy's.

    Why did he do this ? it doesn't relate to the day/night of the murder, and it's not far enough in the past to confuse what weekend it was.

    My personal opinion is that he wants to give the impression to the Gardai that he's not the type to be out and about at all hours.

    He's trying to say he's the type that goes straight home after the pub, something that will make him less suspicious from the start.

    But then he thinks better of it, he probably realizes that anyone at Murphy's could say he was there and then he'd have some explaining to do.

    So he goes to the Gardai and clarifies it.

    Nothing is ever straight forward with Bailey.

    Like in the West Cork podcast where he talks about the busted alibi, he says he was "right here at this kitchen table writing that article" but he never mentions that he then had to go down to the studio to type it, it's the podcast presenter that tells us that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Bailey would be bang to rights in the court of public opinion if he was shown to have met her

    Saying "he seen her once from a distance through Alfies window" ?

    Is above correct. ? If so there's no wriggle room there



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