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Casement Park watch.

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭celt262


    The kids may still not get to play in it . It isn't Antrim ground anymore and its hard to know what the Ulster Council will allow be played in it at this stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 245 ✭✭oisinog


    I hear the conversations that are going on about Casement. You only have to listen to the radio in the mornings or afternoons to hear what people are talking about. If Windsor was being redeveloped there would be no issue over the costs. People from the PLU communities are complaining because its £200+ m going to West Belfast not taking into consideration that people coming to the matches will be using public transport, drinking in local bars eating in local areas.

    Gaelic Football has a higher participation rate that Soccer particularly among Women. When you add in Hurling and Camogie as well as handball into that the numbers are massive.

    Regardless of what people think the Club my girls are a member of have people from all sides of the community.

    East Belfast have over 500 members, the first LGBT team is set up in Belfast that's 2 new clubs in the last 5 years which is evidence that the sports are growing which is positive for the city



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 245 ✭✭oisinog


    My understanding is that it will still be Antrim's home ground, there will still be chances for local schools to play at half time in big games which will still be massive for local clubs/schools



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭celt262


    There are no agreements in place between Antrim GAA and the Ulster Council it's likely their league games will remain in Corrigan Park. It's important that they do get plenty of use of it if it is built, they should be playing lots of Club Championship games in it and schools and club finals but we don't know what road the Ulster Council will go down with it yet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 245 ✭✭oisinog


    Thats a pity I was reading to much into Antrim's press releases



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭threeball


    It's not the GAAs responsibility to provide a stadium for soccer finals, concerts or any other rubbish that people want to trot out in order to justify a white elephant. Upkeep on a massively oversized, massively overspec'd stadium will be a millstone round the neck of the association for decades. When was the last time there was 10k at an Antrim game never mind 34k. Its fantasy land stuff. You need 7.5k tops and a nice place for supporters to attend a game which can generate an atmosphere. It wouldn't even be economical to open the stadium for the vast majority of antrims games.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,486 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    I was at the last ever game played in the old stadium in 2013. I saw the attendance listed elsewhere as 7,712.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/casement-park-deserved-a-better-way-to-say-goodbye-1.1422469



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I am interested, what the rules will be around the GAA and this pitch if the government were to give £200m+. Surely there should be a requirement that the GAA be open to everyone and that the stadium has no symbols that some in the community would find offensive



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,430 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No Irish on the manhole covers or on any signage?

    That kinda of 'offensive'?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,073 ✭✭✭✭event


    The govt gave money to develop Windsor Park. Do you think it should be opened up to GAA?



  • Administrators Posts: 54,168 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    If this was Windsor Park there would be no complaints from the Unionist parties or the people who vote for them. There is one reason for the outrage and that is pure sectarianism.

    I think this is a fairly reductive way of looking at the situation to be honest, but it's unfortunately all too common when it comes to discussing controversial issues in the north. Both sides are experts at playing games with the messaging here. People against the project can display faux-outrage at the costs, and people for the project can claim that anyone against it is just a bigot.

    Look, there are without question a ton of people who hate the GAA hiding behind things like the cost to avoid having to say they just don't want the GAA getting anything. Only a fool would argue otherwise.

    But genuinely, is there not real questions to be asked here? Hundreds of millions for a stadium when the north is in the state that it is? Honestly, people will say that the arguing over this stadium is indicative of the basket case status of northern politics, but I think there's an argument to be made that the fact this idea hasn't been laughed out of the room is an even bigger indicator of the absurdity of how the north works at this point.

    Does anyone really think that if the 26 counties were under the same financial pressures as the north that there'd be nobody questioning a decision down here to give hundreds of millions to the GAA for a stadium that it's really doing quite fine without right now? I'd be disappointed if there weren't huge questions.

    I honestly don't buy the notion there'd be no questions if it were Windsor Park. Yea some of the people complaining today would be quiet, but not all of them, and I am absolutely certain that people on the other side of the political divide would be asking the same questions.

    The GAA need to get their slice of the pie of money that was promised years ago, no question on that, but the more this saga trundles on the more I am thinking this Euro story is pie in the sky and these plans need a dose of reality.

    The GAA sticking their fingers in their ears and insisting they won't pay up just isn't going to work IMO. Neither the Irish nor the British government will absorb these sort of costs, they'd get slammed for it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,430 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The money is not being taken from funds that would find their way to NI for health etc though. It isn't how it works.

    We have heard the 'it would be better spent...' argument many times. It is another convenient way to hide real motivations.

    Personally I think the GAA are bargaining with the 15m stance. It's not their fault the project got delayed so long



  • Administrators Posts: 54,168 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Does it really matter if the money is intended for NI or not though? Whether or not that money would be spent on something else in NI, or something else in Scotland, or something else in England, I don't think it really matters?

    As to being their fault, it's not entirely their fault but they are not blameless. They went in initially with grand plans and tried to railroad residents, and it cost them a lot of time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    The GAA have used Windsor, and I am not aware of any symbols etc at Windsor that would cause a chill factor. Windsor is also situated in a very diverse area. I also don’t think there are any naming issues at any football grounds in the north.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Exactly. At £300 million stadium should be something that everyone feels welcome attending, and there should be no signs of sectarianism in it or around it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    So whose fault is it that the project was delayed? Whoever they are, maybe they should pay the extra money



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,073 ✭✭✭✭event




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I mean that gaa has a big problem with clubs and grounds named after terrorists. Football doesn’t have this issue or chill factor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,073 ✭✭✭✭event


    Yeah. The name Windsor has never done anything wrong in history.

    Mother of Jesus you couldn't make this up.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,073 ✭✭✭✭event


    You're a grown up, I'm sure you can figure it out



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 33,314 CMod ✭✭✭✭ShamoBuc


    Mod Note

    No more of the Sectarianism/Windsor history/Terrorists commentary please, this thread will not descend into that off topic commentary.

    Plenty of areas for that kind of chat outside of the GAA Forum.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    I cannot see the Tory govt coughing up that massive shortfall either. I think Mary Lou McD. put another nail in coffin in the bid for a large redevelopment of Casement Park by Mary Lou McDonald with her speech in America last weekend. As part of her rant she laid in to the British government, saying things like "Tory governments in London never cared for the people of the north of Ireland". Kinda hard to go looking for extra money off the Tory government when you bad mouth them like that behind their back, I am sure Sunak thinks he is already spending enough billions in Ireland every year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,430 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Mary Lou is not looking for the money, it's a GAA development.





  • +1.

    The Tories have used the example of HS2 in relation to potential costs for this project. If that's not flying the kite about this, I don't know what is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Of course, Sinn Fein raised more than €1 million in the United States last year, and none of it went to the GAA. It was her comments last weekend though that made it even harder for Sunak to come up with even more money for Casement. Why would he when he and his party are continually insulted. Mary Lou McD just put another nail in the coffin. I do not think there will be a new 300 million stadium now, cannot see it.

    Post edited by Francis McM on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,430 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A rather naïve take on it tbh.

    it will come down to what it always has come down to regarding Ireland - what's in it for the Tories.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 245 ✭✭oisinog


    I agree its not the GAA's responsibility to provide a stadium to provide a stadium for other events, but this is something that they have committed to do, I would love to say the optimistic me would be to promote the sports, but really this is to get another revenue scheme to ensure that there is an income into the stadium and the GAA in general. Overall this will have benefits for Belfast in general as there will be employment, income into bars for these big events. This overall will have a longer term benefit to Belfast.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    That is a rather naive take on it. Governments all around the world spend money the whole time without it coming down to "whats in it" for that political party. You are not suggesting our Irish FF/FG government are just after committing 50 million in this one project in this one area because of whats in it for the FF/FG government?

    A few good points there. I agree the GAA need to get their slice of the pie of money that was promised years ago, no question on that, but the more this saga trundles on the more I am thinking this Euro story is pie in the sky and these plans need a dose of reality.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 245 ✭✭oisinog


    Awec I would love to think it was no other reason that Sectarianism, you only have to look at the people on twitter or listen to Nolan to see who is leading the charge against Casement. Granted that is not a full cross section of the community. A lot of people I know from the non GAA community are keen on seeing the development going ahead as some of them can see what it will bring to the city.

    As a keen Ulster fan that I am and I know you are having a second stadium in Belfast would have been a helpful for Ulster after the frozen pitch incident of last year.

    We need to start thinking bigger picture and make Northern Ireland an go to place for sport we are already attracting people for Golf we need to expand that and look for Europa league finals, American Football.

    This country will never grow if we don't finance it properly and sometimes that has to be outside health and education.

    Interesting figures came out this morning that active travel (people walking and cycling to work) in Northern Ireland has saved the NHS £9m imagine if something like casement encouraged more people into sport how much more it could save the NHS

    Post edited by oisinog on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,430 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yes, the Irish government would certainly have assessed what is in it for them.

    It's in furtherance of their aim to encourage growth and benefits for NI and the overall package of funding is aimed at growing the all Ireland economy. Which is beneficial to them and all of us.

    The Tory's will assess it in the same way. With one added ingredient - the selfishness of this particular Tory government will be a factor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Well, as someone else said, the GAA sticking their fingers in their ears and insisting they won't pay up just isn't going to work. 300 million and rising is a lot of money. Neither the Irish nor the British government will absorb these sort of costs, they would get slammed for it. A modest stadium yes, but not one for 300 million, it is not 2006 Celtic Tiger times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,430 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Not that expensive for a new stadium. Tottenham Hotspur recently built a stadium for 1.2bn and Wembley cost 786 million.

    A major city stadium capable of holding any event thrown at it for 300million is small change in the scheme of things.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭threeball


    Outsized stadium don't do any good for a sport. You only have to look at Croke Park to see the amounts of complaints about atmosphere at everything up to semi finals due to the place being half full. In Antrims case they won't even 1/4 fill it. It'll drive people away rather than draw them in. Any benefit from the odd concert or event will be lost in operating costs. Again, look at the upkeep on Croker, changing out all the seats is costing millions alone. The expenditure is crazy and that would be used extensively outside of match days including the museum, corporate etc. Any stadium that sits idle decays. If you really want GAA to flourish in Belfast, instead look for a high quality appropriately sized stadium and funds pumped into local clubs. When UEFA are gone in July they won't give a flute about Casement or Belfast.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭threeball


    Tottenham is nearly 63K capacity and has 2 interchangeable sliding pitches, Wembley is over 90K capacity and the feature ground for the FA. €300 million for a stadium that will be full 3 times is absolute lunacy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,290 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    The Tories can't really be insulted by Sinn Fein because because Sinn Fein are irrelevant in England now. Very very few will have even heard of Mary Lou never mind what she said.

    This Tory government are in complete disarray and are putting out fires all over the place so between their Rwanda nonsense and attempts at budgets that their own watchdogs are saying will sink the country they have no time to be caring about some "foreign" stadium.

    I was all for it but it's time to pack it in and build a good 15k ground for Antrim.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,430 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well I think they's be looking at multiple events. A programme of gaelic, American Football, big rugby + soccer and concerts.

    For a piece of infrastructure capable of delivering the above I don't think it is massive money tbh. What it would repay to the city and the surrounds would be huge and the price would soon be forgotten.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭threeball


    Then the city should deliver it, not the GAA. As a GAA stadium its not sustainable and completely out of whack with what Antrim require. The Athletic grounds in Armagh is closer to what Antrim should be aiming for.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    True enough, even on RTE many GAA stadiums seem relatively empty as it is, unless it is a big match.

    Soccer in England is different to this island. According to google, the UK is home to the richest and most-watched soccer football league in the world. It brings in billions in exports / foreign earnings for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,774 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    I think you're right , but that won't be highlighted during the wrangling over funding.

    A major, top level stadium will always be in the hunt for various events.

    The worst that could happen now is a Monaghan-Cavan final 😁😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,430 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Monaghan v Cavan would fill Clones so no bother filling Casement. Belfast boys might have more luck getting money outta the Cavan las too. 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,430 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    None of the sports would have stadiums if it was down to the city.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭threeball


    You're arguing that the revenue generated by this stadium through non GAA events will be great for the city. Why would the GAA want to partially provide or run a stadium where 90% of the revenue in order to keep it viable must come from external events. No stadium in the world apart from PUC runs such a business model yet now multiple counties are trying to do just that. Kerry want to chance their arm, another fools errand. They played Tyrone in Killarney at the weekend, the place was empty. Division 1 football, major history, empty. Mayo Roscommon in Castlebar, again mostly empty. Huge rivals, division 1, no crowd to justify the capacity of the stadium. Mayo up to their neck in debt, Kerry trying to follow them. 10K stadia and the place would be hopping. 30k and its like a morgue. TV engagement suffers as a result too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,430 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You'd have to talk to the GAA about that. But I would think the city location would make it an entirely different proposition.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭threeball


    It hasn't in Cork, they're struggling to pay a debt on a stadium where it was totally out of kilter with what was required. And in a county where GAA is number 1.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭celt262


    The stadium isn't for Antrim though its for Ulster Gaa.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,430 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You'd have to look at the figures.

    All I am saying is there is likely to be a specific plan. Whether they are right or wrong is another discussion



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭threeball


    Ulster GAA already has a stadium which is far better located than this one and even if it did go ahead would only see 2 to 3 championship games a year. Its a total nonsense



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Just to clear up the Stadium useage the below is taken from GAA submission on events after the Euros that waa submitted to Belfast City Council. I cant upload the actual document at the moment.

    Frequency of Use

    3.2. Table 3.1 sets out a high-level summary of the anticipated frequency of the various events

    proposed for the Casement Park Stadium. 

    Table 3.1 Frequency of Use Summary

    Use Frequency of Event Anticipated 

    Months

    Anticipated 

    Days

    Anticipated 

    Hours

    Sporting Events

    County Training 12-24 sessions 

    annually

    All year round Week nights Starting at 8pm

    Finish at 10pm

    Schools Matches 8-12 matches annually 

    with an attendance 

    range of 200-2500;

    School Terms

    September to 

    June

    Week nights Starting at 8pm

    Finish at 10pm

    Club Matches 25 matches annually 

    with attendances 

    ranging from 50-3500

    February to 

    November

    Week nights Starting at 8pm

    Finish at 10pm

    County Matches 15-20 matches 

    annually with 

    attendances ranging 

    from 500-5000

    January to 

    September

    Week nights 

    (likely to mainly 

    be on a 

    Wednesday)

    Starting at 8pm

    Finish at 10pm

    All Ireland Qualifiers 2-5 matches annually 

    with attendance range 

    3,000-15,000

    June and July Saturday 

    Sunday

    Starting at 7pm

    Starting at 2pm*

    Ulster Championship 

    Semi-finals; 

    2 matches annually 

    with attendances 

    typically around 

    20,000

    June Saturday 

    Sunday

    Starting at 7pm

    Starting at 2pm*

    Ulster Championship 

    Final

    1 match annually with 

    attendance normally 

    32,000-34,186.

    July Sunday Starting at 2pm*

    Major Non- Sporting Events

    Concerts Up to a maximum 3 

    outdoor music events 

    per year up to 34,186 

    in attendance 

    June/ July/ 

    August

    Friday

    Saturday

    Sunday

    Doors open at 

    4pm,

    Warm up act 

    begins at 7pm,

    Main act 8pm,

    Finish 11pm.

     *Depending on TV Scheduling this may be moved one hour either side



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