Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

One must treat anything on Galway Beo with caution. It is a website for clickbaits, is that the correct word?

Only a fool would depend on it for the truth.

The Foynes line didn't go through planning, however they are now going through planning to raise the height of a bridge.

Further WRC reopening will almost certainly require planning permission. A new N63 bridge is required and works would be required at the three N17 LCs south of Claremorris at the very least. It also runs through more built up areas.

Intention/ambition has pretty much the same meaning (i.e. what he wants to do) unless you are obsessed with silly semantics. I didn't put anything in quotation marks so I didn't misquote anyone.

A Minister's personal ambitions are a hell of a lot different to the intentions of the Government.

Ryan doesn't get to commit significant capital without getting cabinet sign-off. Without Cabinet approval, Ryan's "ambitions" can be classed on the same level as his aspirations to reintroduce wild wolves to Ireland.

And here we are two and a half years later with not a single cent committed. Apart from the all important hedge trimming of course.

Is there any evidence that any of the rest of the line, outside of around Claremorris, is being cleared?

It's all very well for WOT to look out their windows in Claremorris and see line clearing, but the fact that there is a local election coming up, and this limited line clearing is being done, may not be entirely coincidental.

Muppetry...charming. Well I won't lower myself to your name calling. The thread will be fine without you.

Calling yourself a muppet? Ok then. 😄

I was not being oversensitive, I was pouring ridicule on the notion that a bit of line clearance would enable a re-opening. It's not more than about 1% of what's needed for that.

I've heard all your points before. Citing negative cost benefit analysis that doesn't exist etc. No offence but you have no idea what benefits this can bring. I defer to the opinions of major employers that want the WRC opened as a more efficient way of getting freight to ports. The AIRR has indicated that opening to Claremorris ia viable but no further north until deemed otherwise. The CE of irish rail himself has referenced this too. you seem to think you know otherwise despite not having any evidence. 400-600 million to link all the major towns of Galway and Mayo and beyond seems reasonable compared to the cost of road projects. Each train can carry up to 30 containers and take lorries odd the road. The EU has commented on the deficit of rail infrastructure in the northwest - we are near the bottom of the table. The double tracking you mention will be needed in other places but will cost far more than the WRC in terms of planning, land acquisition and construction. The WRC route line in contrast is intact and can be delivered much quicker.

Foynes is being rebuilt to freight standards - trying to use its costs for reopening a passenger line is deliberate misrepresentation.

So much WRC stuff relies on trying to claim that official figures are wrong; but using either misrepresentation or pure invention as the basis for that claim. Figures from reports have far more validity than figures from railfans heads, no matter how much people may want the latter to be considered as valid.

The attempted takedown of the last report in to WRC reopening is particularly comical - fantasy maths from start to finish, trying to latch to every perceived error in the official, EU checked report and just making stuff up to fill in gaps.

Athenry-Claremorris will only reopen - for freight - due to a large committed freight customer or political interference. Passengers beyond Tuam is fantasy.

Burma Road reopening is also fantasy; and the false hope given to people in the North West of Sligo to Letterkenny/Derry - where there isn't even a previous alignment to use, because there was never any connection North of Sligo - is bordering on abusive of peoples hopes.#

If you gave any transport planner five times the cost - capex, rolling stock and opex - of reopening the Burma Road, and asked them what they could do for public transport in the area - they would not suggest reopening the railway.

Your claims that the Oranmore passing loop will double capacity on the Galway-Athenry section were dismissed previously. You need to be able to prove it for that claim to be valid.

€104m is the cost for civil works only on Limerick - Foynes. The signalling system, LCs, etc. are all to be installed later under a separate contract at additional cost. Limerick - Foynes was in use for some years after Athenry - Claremorris so your claim that the later was in better condition is just that - your claim. It isn't actually true.

It's also funny how the AIRR is defended to the hilt when people point out what it is (merely a speculative projection of what the rail network could look like at some undefined point in the future if many billions were invested) but when the cost estimated doesn’t suit you, it is "clearly overestimated".

Tuam is a small town and regular travellers into Galway city would be small, most jobs are outside the city centre, that's a fact.

Claremorris-Galway in one hour and Westport-Galway in 1.5 hours are unlikely without significant other investment. Again, numbers making those journeys regularly would be small. Regardless, those journey times are not attractive for commuters and not worth running a train which needs high occupancy to be viable (particularly after €0.5m+ investment).

A train service from Tuam isn't going to make a difference to Galway being choking with traffic and plagued by urban sprawl. The solution to Galway's traffic problems is a proper, efficient bus network which would serve far more people than trains north of Athenry, be rolled out faster and at a fraction of the cost.

I was talking about the existing but sparsely used line from Limerick Junction to Waterford, which has significant potential in terms of freight and much more frequent and faster passenger services, but which is sorely neglected. The line is operational and virtually all CWR, but has a stupidly low linespeed of 50 mph, and is riddled with even lower speeds near level crossings.

For heaven's sake do the easy things first and maximise the potential of existing assets.

I never remotely considered the old Cork-Waterford link via Fermoy, hence my references to Clonmel, Tipperary, and Cahir.

The things you assert to be facts are anything but. It's a 1km passing loop, as confirmed in the Dáil, so your tripling of capacity is not accurate. 1km double track on a 20km section isn't going to give a huge increase in capacity, double-tracking will be needed for a meaningful level of service from the Tuam branch. There are many considerations which will determine capacity. West of Athenry you basically have 3 different lines sharing the same track.

WOT pulling a few weeds wont have made any difference to the cost of reopening the line, you are really clutching at straws here. A major scope of works is still required; upgrade of trackbed, new ballast, new drainage, retaining walls where necessary, rehabilitation and/or replacement of bridges, installation of new rails and sleepers, all new signaling and communications systems, creating compliant LCs, etc. In addition, you have the extra cost for passenger services, multiple LCs on a busy N road, new stations and track connections at both ends which don't apply to Foynes - Limerick.

Your journey times estimates are very oversimplified. Maybe under perfect conditions, those times might be possible but in reality, there are several other considerations which will impact journey times. It needs to achieve good journey times at the time people want to be travelling, which will be the same time as high demand for the other services using the line. Athenry with be a constraint given the various movements which would be required there and the LC at the station.

Even with an hour journey time, the number of people looking to travel between Claremorris and Galway city centre will be very small. Add 10 minutes either side of each station (entirely reasonable given the small population close to Claremorris station and the limited employment immediately at Ceannt Station) that's a 1 hour 20 minute commute. That isn't going to be attractive for many people. You'd need every working person in Claremorris making that journey regularly to justify the train service.

Your usual incomplete analysis. The train service won't be dependent on Claremorris only. Passengers will also be coming through Claremorris from Ballina, Westport and Castlebar. And what has been said so many times before the line opening will be because of freight. Once its open for freight it will be relatively easy to follow on with passengers. Without freight it won't open. You know this of course but choose to ignore facts ti make a false argument.

There isn't going to be significant numbers of people travelling regularly from Ballina, Westport and Castlebar to Galway city. You are looking at approx. 2 hour journey time with even short travel to/from the stations either end. Listing towns further out is meaningless, they are too far for commuting.

Freight and passengers combined have to justify the €0.5bn capital cost. We would almost certainly get more freight and passengers by investing that money elsewhere in the network. The west would benefit more from investing in Portarlington - Athlone.

Your point on journey time is irrelevant. Maybe an hour from Claremorris to Galway will be possible based on a simple speed/distance calculation but there is more to it than that. Any services joining the mainline will have to fit in around other services on the line. An hour journey time isn't going to be attractive to many commuters anyway and would have to be at the right times of the day. As you pointed out, there is big demand on the existing mainline so it makes sense that that is prioritised for peak commuter paths.

Can you quote where I said anything about Athenry and Tuam services competing against each other? Additional peak time services from Athenry can be added at much lower cost without reinstating services to Tuam. Double-tracking sections on the mainline would also benefit intercity services. Passengers from Athenry or further west can't be used to justify reopening Tuam.

Of course the passing loop will gove some increase in line capacity, I never said I don't accept this (another example of you making up something to argue with). You accused me of peddling misinformation when your claims were based on incorrect information. You claimed doubling or tripling of capacity which simply isn't accurate.

Ultimately, level of capacity, optimal use of that capacity and achievable journey times will have to be determined by IÉ staff taking all considerations into account. You can speculate but that isn't factual.

Please don't accuse me of being unfair, it is you who is being unfair. You selectively quote a part of what I said in relation to journey time. My full sentence was; "Your point on journey time is irrelevant". What I mean by this is that even if your claimed journey time of one hour from Claremorris to Galway was achievable, it still isn't an attractive journey time for commuters when additional journey time either side is factored in.

I also never said anything about the 20minutes wait time at Athenry and 50kph assumed speed from the EY report. It is you who keeps bringing these up. You say that it seems that I accept these when I never mentioned or referred to that report at all in this discussion. You are introducing this and attributing it to me which is unfair as my points had nothing to do with them.

As regards use of capacity on the mainline, we should be looking to provide regular services between Galway and Athlone throughout the day with additional stations created. Having long distance services also acting as commter services fails to meet current demand and is an impediment to further growth.

I haven't been bringing up the EY report at all. You have been bringing it up, not really sure why.

The flip side of this is people wanting WRC reinstated bring up AISRR as if it finds a viable case for reopening the line. It doesn't as it didn't specifically access it in terms of cost v benefits.

Eventually we will probably see another few hundred grand given to some consultants to assess it again. No doubt there will be the same arguments again with people who don't agree with the reports findings trying to discredit it. Nothing will happen and a potential asset will go unused for another decade because of the "rail or nothing" mentality.

The fact still remains that reopening the rail line isn't a live project, is not specifically planned for delivery under any current national plans and is not factored in to current capital expenditure plans.