England v Ireland. Twickenham. Sat 9th Mar, 16:45. RTE2

Beyond stupid at this level and his experience. Murray had a brain fart when it matters most. Time to get a young team together, may be down for a few years but it has to be built. Bring in foreign coaches to try and get into the Irish players heads to make them have more composure under pressure.

I look at whats available to the coaches. Looking at England, it's looking to me like there's a few diamonds coming through. It will take time and it will take some bedding in.I would think England will be a vastly improved team next year.

A few points. England even when hey aren't great always show up for Ireland. Last year is a good example, a poor English team got the worst possible start in a red card and still stuck with us until the last quarter. They didn't play as well as todays team but they didn't roll over. Wales similarly often outdo themselves against us. NZ over the last few years also bring their best to our matches, like the 1/4 final where they played heir best rugby for years. I don't know what it is but Ireland bring out the best in good teams and when that coincides with us playing poorly we suffer.

I find it hard to look to the ref for significant contributions today, Ireland finding themselves tackled behind he gainline for most of the match was a much bigger issue than decisions the went one way rather than another. A number of Irish players/coaches made too many bad decisions, POM, Beirne (the penalty at the death that led to the drop goal), Murray's box kick (along with several of his earlier box kicks, did we regather any?), Crowley crabbing across the field, Doris' breakdown ordinariness, the subs lack of impact, 6/2 didn't work and caused many of our problems, the line out was meh again, we gave up scrum penalties early in he match, and probably most surprising was the absence of leadership on the field. Taking 3 points before half time had a certain appealing logic, but going for the corner was also a chance to end the half emphatically. It was also different to how Ireland normally approach those opportunities. Agains the ABs we'd have gone to the corner.

I don't think that England are where we were 20 years ago, they've improved over the competition, they're instituting a new defensive strategy and they showed today they have a backline in the making that is very impressive. They have a clear trajectory of improvement in front of them and the players to make it happen. There are gaps, ltheir front row subs aren't the future. But Ireland also have some serious succession challenges and England deifinitely showed today how to beat us, as the ABs did.

Yeah, I thought Beirne looked to have won that fairly but the ref gave him plenty of notice and an Irish player was slapping him to release. Maybe he didn’t hear but still, on the line it’s a basic error.

There are some who will try to explain it away with stuff like; “the ref wouldn’t let us stuff it up the jumper from there…..etc”. The truth is it’s an inexplicable mistake from an experienced player like Conor Murray and a very disappointing way for him to probably end his international career.

Seen image already asking why Smith took the drop goal when they already had penalty advantage and another try would give them the bonus try and extra point to win the championship

When you consider Ireland slogging it v Wales and last min to get bonus it is valid point

Well if you look 20 years ago;

in 2003, Ireland beat France (2002 6N champions) but didn't win the tournament

in 2004, Ireland beat England (2003 6N & WC champions) but didn't win the tournament

in 2005, Ireland beat England again but didn't win the tournament

So yeah, 20 years ago, Ireland were pulling off a big victory each year but ultimately failing to win anything. That's what England have done here. Assuming Ireland get a BP against Scotland, we'll have won the tournament which is far better than playing above yourself for one game (where they also had advantages like being at home and having been written off by the media).

I'm not sure they have a clear trajectory of improvement, they lost to a poor Scottish side in their previous game and scraped past a crap Wales before that. We'll have to see how England get on in France next week, can they bring that level of performance again? From where we stand right now, it looks like yesterday was a perfect storm for them.

Despite yesterday's result, Ireland are still in a much better place than England.

How many of THIS French tam have been in finals? It doesn't matter if previous French teams have been to finals, bottling is still bottling.

Yeah but they lost in that QF v SA, that just proves they are a bunch of losers...that's the narrative Ireland have had created for them, if you want to use it then at least be consistent as all you do is damage you're credibility.

We have got it done, we're about to win 2 championships in a row. You are basically calling this team a bottle for failing to achieve what no side has ever achieved in 6N history (i.e even England WC winning side or any of those great French teams in the 2000s). There's no mental fragility, we just had a poor performance and lost, literally every other side has had that and dont get labelled bottlers for it.

I guess this show's that one result/performance doesn't define how good or bad a side is. At the end of the day Ireland will still be back to back champion's which should tell us who the dominant force is in NH rugby.

They seem at a low ebb compared to how high Ireland are.

The fact's are Ireland have won 20 from 22 games and will be back to back champions this time next week, there was no history on the line all they will have done is won the back to back championship's yesterday, they still had one game to go afterwards. The narrative seems to be Ireland had to do what no side has ever achieved in the professional era otherwise they are bottlers, on the contrary you seem to holding this Irish side to standards you dont hold other teams to.

They haven't got it done. They've won nothing. You're assuming they'll beat Scotland. Scotland, rightly, got a pasting from pundits and fans for losing to Italy. There should be the same gap between Ireland and England as there is between Scotland and Italy, yet we still have people like you out making excuses for throwing away a chance that they'll likely never get again.

Yes it's a difficult thing to do but the reality is, the rest of the teams in this year's championship are bang average and we're not supposed to be that. They can't get all the accolades and none of the criticism.

Murray was not the winning and/or losing the match. But with only 60 seconds left Ireland could and should have gone through one or two phases. The difference between 1 minute and two or three is huge.

NH rugby and competitions like the 6 nations is a bit like the championship in football, they get to the top flight but rarely do anything there.

rugby being such a minority sport, declaring yourself as a dominant force in NH is pointless. It’s like calling yourself the best Gaelic footballer in Kilkenny. Meaningless really.

I don’t think they are bottlers, a bottler is a team or individual that is capable of going all the way but can’t because of some internal barrier which has nothing to do with the opposition and prevents them from doing so. I don’t think they are capable of going all the way and never have which is why they haven’t achieved anything on the world stage. Ireland is also doing this with a heap of players who are not Irish and have nothing to do with Ireland, they can’t even win when it matters when de facto cheating.