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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    There is no right of way marked on the landregistry maps, but that does not mean there wasn’t some sort of agreement.

    Irish rights of way and easements can cause lots of arguments and are not always understood properly.

    The shed and the land around it (not the whole field) has since been acquired by Pierre-Louis, Sophie’s son .



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    Whatever the legalities both Sophie and Alfie believed that it was his right of way to the little barn. Certainly Leo and Sally Bolger were using it, with Alfie's permission, to gain access to their horses leading up to the murder. Leo had, in fact, fenced the land in the preceding days, to ensure that the field was secure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Mackinac


    In his statement Finbar Hellen said he saw Sophie’s shadow in the kitchen over the weekend. Was he going/coming from the stone outhouse when he saw into the kitchen?



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Doesnt appear so. According to the CrimeGuy timeline this was early afternoon on the 21st:

    Finbar Hellen and son Jon walked over to Toormore and saw Sophie's car at the cottage. Finbar almost walked up to greet Sophie but did not. However he anticipated she would come out to talk to them and did not, which he registered as unusual to the extent that he told this detail to the police.

    21.12.1996 14:30 Finbar and John pass by Sophie's house once again. Again Sophie does not come out. Finbar saw Sophie's shadow in the house.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Mackinac


    Ah thank you, he did say house, for some reason I had thought it was the kitchen. Did strike me as odd though how you notice a shadow on a fleeting glance by!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    I believe they were coming to check on the cattle - which they did everyday.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Finbarr Hellen and Alfie did not get on, there had been fencing/boundary issues and Alfie's dog worrying Hellens' sheep. Finbarr would have no business in Alfie's shed, but if he was close enough to see Sophie in her kitchen you'd wonder where he was? Unless he was visiting Sophie, he would have no business beyond the gate in the lane.Then again maybe he could see her from there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01


    @bjsc - As an experienced professional with regards to crime scenes, and an obvious analytical thinker, I suspect that you have already formed a theory yourself?

    I don't think you will post your theory here, nor do I expect you to name names etc...

    Somebody of your caliber has almost certainly tried to join the dots up on this peculiar jigsaw - You couldn't resist the challenge.

    I think you ruled Bailey out from the get-go. I think you discovered an attempt to distract where the evidence was pointing towards. And, I think like the investigation of '96', you near as dammit know who the murderer is - But can't prove it.

    *Hence you refer to unreleased Garda files etc.. *



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    She's ruled nothing in or out

    She stated that a random killer and french hitman are not likely

    Nothing definitively on bailey either way

    And a morning murder is a possibility that may have been overlooked

    She's an excellent poster

    And ya I'm not bjsc but I believe that's accurate. She'll correct me if wrong



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    When I visited the scene I was surprised how much closer everything was, relatively, compared to the crime scene photos. It's a little like estate agent's photos which always manage to make rooms way larger than they actually are. So yes, I think it perfectly possible to see movement in the house from the gate. The entrance to one of Finbarr's fields is actually just to the left as you approach the gate where Sophie's body was found.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    I have ruled nothing in or out and I have always said that if I found anything concrete which indicated Ian Bailey's guilt I would not hesitate to go to the authorities. What I have said is that, given the known facts, there are more viable suspects than Bailey. Particularly if you allow for the possibility of a morning killing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Mackinac




  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,307 ✭✭✭MonkieSocks


    The entrance to one of Finbarr's fields is actually just to the left as you approach the gate where Sophie's body was found.

    A good view of the layout situation at that time


    =(:-) Me? I know who I am. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude (-:)=



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,243 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    there are more viable suspects than Bailey.

    Like who and why ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    Ah there you are - i wondered where you'd disappeared to. As I have said on numerous occasions I have no intention of naming names. All I want to do is to try and dispel some of the misconceptions and to point out the facts as evidenced by the original statements, photos etc. You, of course, may speculate as much as you want.



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    No😁

    Would u disagree with anything i said btw



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..




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  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,243 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious



    I have no intention of naming names

    Quel dommage



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc




  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭bjsc


    Why are you so keen for me to name names. I have theories but no absolute proof. Theories which are based on my nearly 30 years experience in crime scene investigation. However they are just theories and, without proof, I have no wish to subject anyone to the sort of scrutiny that haunted Ian Bailey.

    Only AGS and/or DPP have the legal authority to name suspects. Anything else is just speculation. Would you like it if someone did it to you or your family.



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01


    Excellent Post!

    You are the difference between Professionally trained crime scene personnel, and us armchair detectives!

    The very fact you can form a theory based on over 30yrs experience is mouth watering to us pretend sleuths.

    The location has always got me, it makes no sense, it's in the middle of nowhere -... The brutality of the killing was hate driven in my opinion.

    Look at these two points above, also, nothing appears to have been stolen, note the bleak winter nights and cold winter temperatures....

    The photo posted before this one, clearly shows fencing & fence posts ready to be installed.. Was this a source of disharmony?

    Was there a dispute as to where the fencing would be mounted? Were boundary lines defined? Was access being cut off to some proposed right of way?

    This vicious murder occurred way out in the sticks, in the middle of winter, with not one iota of evidence left by the murderer......

    Somebody pulled the door shut in the cottage... The keys were inside, so it was hardly Sophie (realistically). Sophie's blood was found on the door and was possibly transferred there from a downwards sweep of the door handle.. No other blood was reportedly found around the front door area, which may suggest the blood was transferred there from another source (murderers sleeve?)

    Why would the killer care if the door was open or shut?

    A robbery gone bad just doesn't stack up.. These guys want cash, jewelery and a fast escape route A hired assassin is just as daft.. Unless they hired Frank Spencer... The extreme lengths of violence the killer went to are not common - There was a degree on rage & anger here!

    I am convinced the murderer is from the locality - And probably a lot nearer than people feel comfortable with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    I wouldn't be reading too much into the killer leaving no evidence

    . There may have been some Garda incompetence in evidence gathering. The killer may have worn gloves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Look at the extreme violence inflicted during the cocked up assassination attempt in Dublin over Christmas. That's not to say it was an assassin, just that yes they can make mistakes, and criminals can inflict huge amount of violence if they deem they have been 'provoked'.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "The photo posted before this one, clearly shows fencing & fence posts ready to be installed.. Was this a source of disharmony?"

    Those fence posts lying on the lawn were not there on the morning of the 23rd.

    That photo was taken some time after the murder, the ditches had been cut back by the Gardaí and the posts were probably pulled out of the ditch.

    "The keys were inside, so it was hardly Sophie (realistically). Sophie's blood was found on the door "

    The blood was found on the back door, the keys were inside the front door.

    I'd say you are right about disharmony around the area and the hate and rage in the killing.

    Wouldn't you have to know someone to hate them that much?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Bjsc has surmised that the stranger killer and the hired hitman theories are not likely to have occured

    That reasonably leaves the prime suspect Bailey as the likely murderer

    After that the most likely correct theory is the local dispute over access etc.

    This was an anger fuelled killing by someone who knew or 'knew of' Sophie



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    It would help if there was some clarity on whether the initial encounter occured at the house or the gate

    For the Bailey theory to be correct the first encounter would reasonably have occured at the house

    The access dispute /local disagreement may likely have occurred at the gate



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