Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Claremorris is already connected by rail to towns like Castlebar, Ballina and Westport, why not invest in improving services between these towns plus bus connections to large employers? It could be done much faster and at lower cost. Instead all the focus is on investing a 9 figure sum in something which won't actually move a lot of people.

Claremorris is a town of less than 4,000 people. You will need a high percentage of it's working population travelling south regularly by train to justify reopening Athenry - Claremorris. That is the nature of rail, capital and operational costs are high for which you get high capacity, but you need to be utilising that capacity. The demand would be more in line with bus capacity which would have similar if not better journey time, serve multiple stops and offer greater frequency.

Looking beyond Claremorris, journey times from the likes of Castlebar, Ballina and Westport to Athenry are not going to be very attractive to people living in those towns. And yes, people will also be factoring in whatever additional journey time is required either side, the headline rail journey time is only one factor. You also have to consider service frequency, if long gaps between services, people are less likely to use due to inflexibility.

Ultimately, big improvements are needed on the existing lines in Galway and Mayo before a meaningful level of service can be added on WRC. The focus on WRC is misplaced and only hampers rail development in the region. Look at the political and media attention WRC gets while a measly 1km passing loop is being added at Oranmore. If we were serious about rail services in the west, there are numerous relatively small but cumulatively very beneficial improvements which could be made which would have immediate effect but that doesn't get headlines so there is little interest.

Re: Oranmore loop... wow. Seriously?

Currently Athenry/Galway is a 20'-ish ride, meaning that the maximum frequency we can push out in both directions alternating is in the f-42~44 ballpark, depending on how quickly interlocking switches directions and what not.

It does not matter what length the Oranmore loop will be for the following to still remain true. The Oranmore loop will allow to cut the line into two 10-minute-ish sections, meaning that the highest alternating direction frequency would now be around f-21~24. It's double the service potential.

Also whereever did the tripling comments come out of?

Yes it's about moving the transport infrastructure belatedly into the 21st century. Most of the towns on disused lines have populations twice what they were when the rail lines closed and will continue to grow. So many reasons to open the line (which would most likely be already open if the 2008 crash hadn't occured)

• Decarbonisation
• Facilitating more efficient freight movement (the link between Claremorris and Athenry provided an important link for the island’s rail freight network - AIRR)
• Reducing pressure on the rail network around Dublin (allowing a direct route for freight from Ballina and Westport to ports on the South Coast that avoid the most congested part of the rail network around Dublin - AIRR)
• Balanced regional development (low density of rail lines in the West and Northwest has been highlighted by the EU as an issue for regional development)
• Improving economic conditions for businesses by linking the main towns in the west to each other (support freight and regional connectivity objectives in the West of Ireland - AIRR)
• Reducing congestion in Galway city which is worsening all the time as car volumes increase
• Benefits to tourism (particularly between Westport and Galway)
• Relative ease of reinstatement (Due to the current condition and alignment of the track, the Claremorris – Athenry railway can be reinstated relatively soon - AIRR)

Most of the above is of course ignored by some people who are against the line who try to focus the conversation on elements such as commuter numbers which are not the drivers for opening the line, but rather a secondary benefit. That doesn't work of course as most people are aware of the big picture and the need to plan for the future of all the regions.

Of course there's Tuam but it's not exactly huge. No doubt it would generate some commuter traffic but the way Galway city has developed limits that.

Galway has already been connected to Ennis and Limerick. There would be some demand for travel between Galway and Westport, Ballina and Castlebar but not train loads.

It's great that there is some planned investment in rail in Galway but it is pretty unambitious. Should be double-tracking between Galway and Athenry, adding new stations (Roscam, Renmore, possibly eastern side of Oranmore), new curve to Ennis line west of Athenry. Unfortunately WRC gets all the attention.

The tripling comment was therefore comparing the current with the potential rather than the potential with the potential. Yeah, I'm still in the rights to question it.

There isn't much complex about it to be honest. Being the heaviest-used route, any and all Athenry/Galway scheduling would have to be done around the Dublin/Portarlington/Athlone/Athenry route first, with the Ennis and Tuam directions constructed around it – it's actually a rather standard principle, adjust the shorter to work with the longest. There's no question about issues related to scheduling – they will be there! – but with the service levels that can be expected (I mean, look at the Limerick/Galway service), I do think that questioning the reality that cutting the Athenry/Galway section into two won't increase raw overall capacity is excessive.

As I said immediately after calling the AISRR a pile of crap;

Great bit of seletive quoting from you and missing the point entirely. I am entirely consistent with what I am saying. It is others who are happy to go with AISRR when they (mistakingly) think to finds a viable case for reopening Athenry - Claremorris but dismiss the cost estimate.

Is there anything to be said for another mass report?

There is a lot of misinformation being posted here in terms of scheduling, and I think that some clarity needs to be posted.

Galway-Athenry:

Currently this is single track, with a passing loop just outside Galway Station and a split signal just east of Oranmore. The latter allows a train to follow another train in the same direction, passing Galway loop after the first train passes the split signal.

Typical sectional running times for an ICR are:

1. Galway Station to Galway loop - 2 mins
2. Galway loop to Split Signal (no stop at Oranmore) - 5.5 mins (8.5 mins inbound to Galway)
3. Split Signal to Athenry Station - 7.5 mins (6.5 mins inbound to Galway)

Additional journey time may be added for stops:

1. If trains need to pass at Galway loop, then add the following to the train that will stop (usually the outbound service that will wait as the inbound one is the train that might possibly be delayed en route) - 60 seconds for extra deceleration/acceleration plus loop waiting time (typically 5 mins).
2. If trains need to stop at Oranmore, then add 3 mins to the journey time between Galway loop and the split signal - 1 min for additional deceleration/acceleration and 2 min station stop.

Total journey time (ICR) - 15 mins non-stop / 18 mins (Oranmore stop) - Add 2 mins recovery time to this for trains in the other direction ex-Dublin.

For a 2800 DMU, sectional running times would be:

1. Galway Station to Galway loop - 2 mins
2. Galway loop to Split Signal (with a stop at Oranmore) - 8.5 mins
3. Split Signal to Athenry Station - 8.5 mins

That's a total of 19 minutes which applies in both directions.

All of that means that there needs to be a minimum of 8 mins gap between two trains heading in the same direction.

There being only two platforms at Galway currently is a major constraint in that regard. The station expansion to five platforms will be a huge improvement as it means that multiple trains could follow one another into Galway if needs be, before a train goes back out, rather than the current maximum of two.

Clearly adding a loop at Oranmore, combined with the three extra platforms at Galway will mean far greater capacity on that section than is currently possible, especially with trains operating in different directions.

It makes scheduling much easier and adds flexibility if a train is delayed for whatever reason elsewhere along the line. Ideally the entire section needs to be doubled, but the loop is a start. It is a game changer in capacity terms.

Athenry-Tuam-Claremorris

The only thing we can revert to in terms of journey times is worst case scenario, which were the sectional running times when a passenger service last operated.

Journey times back in 1975 were:

• Athenry - Tuam: 23 mins
• Tuam - Claremorris: 24 mins

I'd certainly expect journey times to be at the very least faster than that in the event of the line ever reopening.

General comments re scheduling:

First of all, I totally agree with the comments by @TranslatorPS above on this page. He is spot on about everything.

Yes it is complicated for the layman (or those who don't have a particular interest in it) to understand how schedules are constructed, especially on single track lines where trains have to pass at loops, but as he says the principle in this case is straightforward enough:

1. Schedule the Dublin-Galway & v.v services - they have at least three crossings with other trains between Portarlington and Galway, and need to also fit into the Dublin-Cork line schedule
2. Schedule the Limerick-Galway & v.v services (the long single 40 minute section between Limerick and Ennis is a limiting factor)
3. Schedule the rest of the trains around that

In scheduling terms, that is not rocket science and is reasonably straightforward to do. It's just coming up with the initial timings so that all the crossings with other trains work right along the line.

When comparing what is possible with the current infrastructure and what might be possible with the future infrastructure, then you have to look at the capacity rather than what it is currently operated.

I am trying to find the PP for Ceannt station.

I see PP no. 1418, but that doesn't show five platforms.

I suspect that is an older, earlier application?

So based on the 1975 travel times you mentioned between Athenry and Claremorris,

(Athenry - Tuam: 23 mins) + (3min stop at Tuam say )+ (Tuam - Claremorris: 24 mins) = 50 mins total

Compared with a current car travel time of 45 minutes thats not bad.

Then allowing for the likely improvements in modern rail travel times that you also mentioned and frequent traffic congestion/parking issues for the remainder of the trip to Galway it seems to be an attractive option for passengers from Claremorris and Tuam heading to Galway.

Claremorris to Galway direct by car is just over an hour without hold-ups. Could the rail line come close to matching this? If not I'd imagine it would during peak traffic times at the very least.

All the above based of course on having the extra Ceannt platforms and Oranmore passing loops in place - which they should be before too long.

In the very early days of rail travel, they did use some sort of time interval to separate one train following another. For obvious reasone this was unsafe: what if a train breaks down in mid-dection? Given modern train speeds, the risks would be crazy. The basic idea of separating track into block sections and an absolute rule that only one train can be in a section at any time is more or less universally accepted as an integral part of rail safety.

You could I suppose divide Athenry-Galway into 3 sections and have closer separation, but this would be of limited use as it does nothing in terms of trains in the opposite direction.

So any future services on the Tuam branch would have to be scheduled in around the other services (Dublin-Galway & v.v and Limerick-Galway & v.v, plus any additional commuter services which might be provided thanks to the Oranmore loop) as the trains to/from Tuam would have the most flexibility in terms of not interacting with trains elsewhere.

They would essentially have to take whatever arrival and departure slots they can get at Ceannt, regardless of how appealing they might be.

At Athenry, they should look at moving the station west of the LC and adding a third platform for trains to/from Limerick.

I said "The AIRR puts the cost of reopening Athenry to Claremorris at €400 - 600m", which it does, it's there in black and white, so that was a factually accurate statement. I acknowledge that it seems very high but without a breakdown, we don't know what is included. It's still the figure ARUP decided to put in the report, regardless of what you or I think of it.

To my above comment, you replied "The AIRR has indicated that opening to Claremorris ia viable". You then later said "Businesses want the line opened and the Arup AIRR report says its viable". Do you have anything to support these claims?

And yes, from reading the report I consider it to be rubbish. As I said ages ago, a full Business Case will have to be prepared anyway which would answer questions regarding cost and viability.

I am happy to completely disregard AISRR but equally the report shouldn't be used in support of Athenry - Claremorris. You are unhappy for me to quote from the report but you relying on something which the report doesn't actually say!

The fact remains that the €400-600m is in the report, where are the figures/text to back up the viability of reopening Athenry - Claremorris?

I honestly can't see what quotes you provided from AISRR, can you give again?

Nope never said I was unhappy for you to quote from the report. I never said anything against it. I only asked for consistency. Quoting figures from the report and saying the report is garbage is inconsistent.

And you are doing it yet again in the lastest comment - quoting the figures to argue the line is not viable and at the same time saying you're happy to disregard the AISRR

I think its obvious at this stage that you have no interest in a constructive debate and you are just interested in stirring up pointless arguments with people here and you are effectively just trolling the thread.

Round and round the merry-go-round.

Ah yes...here you are back again after you stormed off a few days ago saying you had enough of the thread. Seems you can't make up your mind what you want.

Isn't a large part of the flooding problem because the Board of Works, TII, Irish Rail and Clare Co Council can't agree on who should pay for the necessary flood relief works?

Don't we have Cabinet Ministers to get together and solve issues like this? Truly pathetic.