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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,310 ✭✭✭✭phog


    In case anyone still thinks we should only be concentrating on the World Cup





  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    Might help if the head coach wants to go with a 6 2 split.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Something is badly off with the Irish team at the moment. Attack has been miles below what it's previously been over the last 3 games. Guys making basic errors under no pressure. No depth in key positions. Lots of players 30+ and well past their best. Major reebot needed over the next 9 months or we'll have fallen miles behind by 2027.



  • Registered Users Posts: 423 ✭✭Piskin


    The silly mistakes and decision making even when not under pressure was back to the old days of the 90s. Take JBP, Lowe,AKI, out of that side and you have a poor enough side in fairness. Beginning to have serious doubts about Farrell at this stage, last years WC he made some awful decisions and this year the same.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,557 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I think Milne will get a run out in S.A. There's a chance to rest up lads and blood a couple. I'd like to see Casey get both starts and Baird/ Prendergast also. Osborne will get in, I believe and it would be a good testing experience for Jager/O'Toole. New caps I hope to see; Ahern, Osborne and McAnn.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,288 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    New 10, hansen is huge loss

    Keenan out

    Ringrose out

    That’s a lot of change for the backs and the lack of Sexton plus Hansen plus Ringrose started to look like it in end

    Crowley is only 10 caps in or so and he is going one direction, give him a SA tour and a AI before next 6 nations and then he will feel like he owns that positikn

    Stick back in Ringrose and Hansen and it will improve but we can’t stand stil, every team in World is after Ireland and looking to shut them down. A change in plan might be called for as Joe used to do…



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,931 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Yes. Unlike soccer where a team can slide slowly off the very top over a number of seasons, it seems in rugby that the decline is much more swift. Perhaps the chemistry of the team is more easily unbalanced when a few stalwarts begin to lose their top edge.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,931 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Ireland look laboured and inclined to run up blind alleys rather than the slick, fast, clever and devastating plays we have become used to seeing. Good v. France but declining in each game since.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭typhoony


    Just to be certain on how poor we were in the 5 and 6 nations prior to the late 90's is that we still hold the wooden spoon title for most number of wins with 25 wooden spoons, we haven't won one since 1998, of course Italy joining took a bit of pressure off the other teams. Wales on the other hand are going the opposite way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,288 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    That's my stat :-)

    I remember watching the first season Italy joined and we thought it was great becuase we wouldn't win the wooden spoon every season anymore, that was the ambition of Irish rugby, some change in such a short time frame

    Also from a 6 nations point of view I think it was Gerry THornley who pointed out Ireland have been the most consistent in terms of finishing in the top 3 for a number of years now....France etc have all dropped in and out



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,310 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Someone said yesterday, if the fixtures were reversed, started poorly v Scotland, lost away to England in a one score game, beat Italy & Wales and then a BP win away v France this 6Ns win would have been seen a fantastic result.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭All_in_Flynn


    Strange game yesterday. We were the much better side in my opinion but execution just not on the level it has been over the last 2 years which is understandable in my book.

    It's been a strange 6 nations as is sometimes the case post a world cup cycle. There hasn't been a single game this tournament where I thought we played anything like we have in the build up the world cup. The players are not anywhere near the physical levels they reached. There is also the factor that Leinster are also in the midst of a transition which will have some kind of affect on the Ireland team.

    It's easy to forget just how good Johnny was and how much he made us tick in attack. I've kept my thoughts to myself on Crowley thus far. He had a good game vs France but I think he's been only ok in the remaining games and that's more than acceptable at this point. He's very talented and he's earned the right now to grow into the role but I don't think he's the mortal lock of Irish starting out-half at the next world cup that some seem to think is the case.

    There is going to be a decent amount of upheaval in the squad I think over the next 12 months. We are in a great position compared to every other team in the 6 nations. There is some serious talent coming through at Leinster in particular. Will be interesting to see what's going to happen now post Mike Catt. Our attack has been sensational at times under him.



  • Registered Users Posts: 923 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    Good post and honestly would be very surprised if Crowley is our starting 10 at the next World Cup. Just don't see the quality in him. I think so much of the stagnation in our attack comes from his inability to take the ball to the line and fully commit defenders, something Sexton was a master at. Crowley did it once in the entire game as far as I can remember at the end of the second half on 43 mins. It was incredibly noticeable watching the France v England game how much flatter Ford & Ramos played v Crowley and their first step was so often forward rather than sideways and entirely static. Problem is the defenders just know he is going to pull the ball back and can offer the soft shoulder to him knowing there is little chance of him taking it up hard or inside. He has a huge amount of work to do.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You were saying the same after the France game and it still remains not remotely true.

    He had 2 big involvements in the 2 tries versus England; one was literally a pass behind the England blitz. Same thing with the France performance, he got the pass away just before taking a tackle, the phase before the JGP try. And made the Beirne try.

    And that's only on tries, and off the top of my head.

    You were championing Harry Byrne after that France; how do you think he played?

    Post edited by aloooof on


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,708 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    I don't think anyone expects a replacement for Sexton but I agree with some of the criticism of Crowley. He definitely is not a world class number 10 in the making and his decision making, execution and penalty taking has been poor. Don't think anyone can dispute that.

    He strikes me as a below average fly-half.

    Do we have much choice right now?

    Probably not.

    Could he improve?

    Maybe.

    A long term replacement for Sexton?

    I don't think so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,288 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    F**k that is harsh, he hasn't even played 15 international games yet and Sexton was 50 games in and people still called for him to be dropped

    Give him about 20 caps and then we can make a call on him at least, seems a few people are willing to throw him under the bus

    THis is his first full season at 10 for both club and country. Last year he spent much of the season playing other roles for club and was only around the squad for Ireland. Playing a few mins in games in WC of course but now he is number 1

    It will also take some time for the players around him to get used to him compared to playing with Sexton, some of the plays it looked like the players suddenly expected a move Sexton would play and forgot Crowley was 10, especially under pressure, This is natural after so long with Sexton but so little time with Crowley running the 10 role.

    At this stage we seem to have a number of options at 10, Crowley and Harry seem to be the two going for the 10 slot, Frawley as the bench option. Not a bad group of players.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    I find it bizarre seeing people trying to downplay Crowley and McCarthy’s first serious run in the first team. Think both of them did great generally as part of the team and had super individual moments. They’ll continue to improve with more experience but both are definitely up to this level.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Crowley is absolutely fine. He has areas to work on in his game, but that is hardly surprising.

    He, like the rest of the team, seemed to fall off a bit after the France match. He could trust himself more to attack the line himself, but he has the athleticism to do so (unlike Ross Byrne for example) and the confidence will come. He definitely needs to work on his penalty taking, but it's far too early doors to worry about that too much yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,288 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    It normally comes down to which province they play for and people complaining about them, both McCarthy and Crowley are in their first proper season as starters for Leinster/Munster. Based on what I seen the upside is huge for both and getting them in now is better long term

    I do find it hilarious the people complaining about them you will probably find are the same people who complain we don't give youth a chance, when we do they slaughter them.

    I do also think Murray is getting unfair questions over him, he is one of the best players ever for Ireland, he still add's huge quality to the team and from the bench brings that massive experience. I don't see the England loss down to him, the kick as Jackman or someone else rightly pointed out was a plan.

    I do hope Ulster continue with Doak at 9 and not move to 10, I think that will be a huge loss to Ireland in the future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,288 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Most people, including me, seen this tournament as one to get a second, bring in Crowley etc and move forward. We have a win and people are complaining.

    By the way Ross Byrne is a quality player, a guy who has ran the ship for many seasons in Leinster and I wouldn't change him. People seem determined to downgrade him based on his faults and not what his positives are, a common issue I find, but he has plenty left and I personally hope he continues to show those positives for Leinster moving forward



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    He is quality, and I think will always be a safe enough option to come into Ireland. But he is also fundamentally limited and everyone knows it. I have a lot of respect for how much he has tried to overcome it, and you can see him do his best to threaten the line but at the end of the day you can't coach speed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭letsbefair


    Look at the points difference, we scored 6 more tries than anyone else. We conceded 6 fewer. We are the best team in the N. Hemisphere. We used 32 players. Replaced Sexton. For me I don't get all the negativity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,288 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Seemingly we didn't test out enough players 🤣

    Or we didn't bring new players into the team 🤣

    Or pick any of the random complaints that people have made over the last 10 years and rehash them.

    We also scored 6 more tries with a brand new 10, missing one of our best wingers and attacking centres. Plus our best and probably the best 15 missing for two games.

    When did ROG threaten the line and is ranked as one of our best 10's ever. When you compare players to Sexton who was a generational player you always will find faults with them. I honestly can't remember but was Humps quick?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    When did ROG threaten the line and is ranked as one of our best 10's ever.

    The list isn't long, but it was a rather glaring issue with his game. I also don't think he would do particularly well in the modern game.

    I'm not comparing RB to Sexton, that would be silly - his brother is far better at it for one. As is Crowley. There is a reason Harry was brought into Irish squads ahead of Ross, even when he was very inexperienced.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,288 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Oh I agree by the way, I think if Harry gets a run of games(which he is doing) he will massively progress. He is still only at the age when Sexton really burst onto the picture. I am just think Ross gets a lot of abuse for stuff he can't change. His positives never get talked about and honestly the only one I ever see talking him up is ROG on OTB.

    I think between H Byrne/Crowley we have an incredible combination of players moving forward with Predergast hopefully coming up behind them. With Richie at Ulster will he bring out the best in Flannery? thats a lot of players when you look at the options we had before.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭ongarite


    Blooding players to get 2nd Clo-Clo suggests is financial sabotage. IRFU earned €3M more winning Six Nations yesterday. That's the money needed to keep the provinces with best players & coaches.

    The summer & maybe Autumn series is when to try new players

    Post edited by ongarite on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    We have two tests against South Africa in July. Unless they schedule a Wolfhounds match as well, we simply aren't going to see wholesale changes or a raft of new faces.

    And considering how many new faces Farrell has brought through in the last couple of seasons, there isn't really any need for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 923 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    My opinion of Crowley is clearer now than post France. Wasn't impressed then and certainly not now. Has massive work to do to threaten the line and actually add to our attack. He was totally ineffective at 10 yesterday and a large part in the failure of our attack yesterday. Maybe he will come good but jury is out for me as to whether he will be able to adapt. Harry was in for what 10 mins, and made a horlicks of a tackle so impossible to judge. Needs a run there and considering the way Crowley has been playing I think Farrell missed a trick not giving him a start.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Harry, you may just want to tone down the hyperbole a wee bit, or you won't pass the RTPs for next week's URC games.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,288 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I didnt suggest to blood players by the way, I said that is what people want. The 6 nations keeps the game alive in Ireland and throwing it as some people suggest will have long term ramifications. What Ireland managed to do was bring in new players while winning the competition and people still complain

    Plus winning means young kids want to play, the 1990 soccer pushed players like Robbie Keane to play, the players ew have now is because of the success of the BOD teams etc. My motto which I have robbed from molecast, for Irish coach is "win today, win tomorrow"



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