Transit Oriented Development - Best candidate locations in Ireland

riddlinrussell · 16-03-2024 12:17am #1

Just watched this video on a proposed ToD at Limerick Junction. https://youtu.be/oin-rU9O7xo?si=mrsluraQSbuldRHX

I find the guy a little overly pro developer/anti ABP, and his ToD could do with a little more density, but it got me thinking, what stations are the best candidates in Ireland for increased ToD? That rare combination of:

- On a transit line

- in or near a major centre

- likely to generate minimal objections for a genuinely dense and tall development.

He's previously also done a video on a ToD in Sallins

bk · 16-03-2024 6:42pm

Swords, population expected to top 100,000 by 2035 and has plenty of space to grow beyond that.

To put that in context, it would pass the population of both Waterford and Galway!

BTW Limerick Junction doesn’t actually make much sense. Would be better to build something like this on the outskirts of Limerick.

riddlinrussell · 16-03-2024 7:23pm

I'd agree, too much need for people to own cars regardless of the PT there

Sam Russell · 17-03-2024 9:34am

The Dart bis 40 years old, (or so) when the two coach trains travelled from Howth to Bray every twenty minutes. Now 8 coach trains go every ten minutes from Howth Junction to Bray with extensions to Malahide, Howth, and Greystones. Who would predict that in 1982?

The mobile phone is much younger, yet everyone (more or less) has one, with even primary school children having them. Who would predict that?

The fact that the motor car is the preferred mode of transport for nearly all is the current situation, but there is no reason to assume that will be the case in 2050, when net-zero is the current policy. A century ago, the tram was the general mode of transport in Dublin. If only that network was still there.

Prediction of the future should be left to historians to examine in hindsight.

KrisW1001 · 17-03-2024 10:27am

Private transportation by car will be the norm in rural Ireland for the forseeable future, even if the method of propulsion changes. However, rural drivers have space for on-site renewables and home charging, which could radically reduce the carbon footprint of what is, by necessity, a car-dependent lifestyle.

In the cities the private car is already on the way out, and this is as it should be. The biggest area of conflict is the suburbs, a landscape literally built for private cars. Densification is one way of making public transport viable here, but it could be a hard sell to existing residents.

New developments should aim for the mid-rise model (5-6 stories) with resident lockup storage behind retail at ground floor that works so well across Europe. What we shouldn't do is costly high rise towers that are expensive to maintain and actually quite space inefficient once you account for service shafts (even if, like Cork's tallest building, you skip the rubbish chutes and force residents to carry their stinky black binbags down to the bins using the lift. Lovely.)

Developers love their towers, though, because they only have to consider the number of dwelling units they can sell per acre, not how small those will be or how much the residents will have to fork out on management fees to keep multiple high-rise lifts in working order...

bk · 17-03-2024 10:36am

The fact that the motor car is the preferred mode of transport for nearly all is the current situation, but there is no reason to assume that will be the case in 2050, when net-zero is the current policy.

Unfortunately there is also no reason to think that cars won’t continue to dominate come 2050, just that they will be EV.

The trend is more cars, not less, an extra 1 million cars in just the last 20 years alone and the net zero stuff isn’t going to change that.

I don’t say that to be argumentative or anything like that, I do think we have to be realistic about what the future will be like, so that we can focus on where public transport and cycling can be most successful.

The reality is 40% of Ireland’s population is rural and worse it lives in one of houses spread along roads in ribbon developments. That won’t change in the next 25 years, those folks will continue to need a car.

But where we can make a difference is building high quality public transport into and around our cities. That is where PT is competitive with driving and can make a real difference. Support that with building high quality, dense apartments in the city near this PT and make the areas walkable and cyclable and attractive.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying ignore rural Ireland, local link, park and rides outside towns and cities, etc. but I do think we have to be realistic about the wider country.

bk · 17-03-2024 10:38am

An area of big change I do see coming is cycling and particular all these electric bikes really make it quick and easy to get around a city fast. We just need safe cycling infrastructure to really unlock this potential. I believe so many people want to cycle, but just don’t feel safe doing so at the moment.

loco_scolo · 17-03-2024 11:04am

Unfortunately there is also no reason to think that cars won’t continue to dominate come 2050, just that they will be EV.

Plenty of reasons to think this actually. Fully agree with @Sam Russell on this one.

The younger generation, on the whole, have no interest in owning cars. Car ownership is a Boomer mentality! Don't underestimate the different mentality of Gen Z...

They are demanding better public transport, urban and rural, and are happy to use that transport even if travelling by car is faster. They are also perfectly happy to share cars.

Personally, our household downsized to one car last year and haven't missed it for one second. I know others who have done the same, or are considering it.

The Mathematician · 17-03-2024 11:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121904618#Comment_121904618

I think this can also really help around smaller towns, provided safe cycling infrastructure is put in place. The sort of location I am thinking of is perhaps 5km from a rural town of population say 2000. It might be that a family in such a location will still have a car in the future but hopefully not the 3 or 4 cars that is sometimes the case at the moment.

lawred2 · 17-03-2024 11:58am

Read that twice as "trans oriented development"

Ronald Binge Redux · 17-03-2024 12:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121904618#Comment_121904618

It's been chucking rain up here all winter. Only the regiment of lycra lads have been out. We're not all gluttons for punishment.

Sam Russell · 17-03-2024 12:59pm

Who will not be driving a motor car in 2050?

Well those under age - currently 17 years before even a provisional driving permit can be applied for - then they have to pass the theory test before even applying.
Then there are those who do not have a full driving licence. Typically under 25s, over 75s, those who never managed the test, those who cannot afford to run a car, those who have no access to parking a car ( usually urban dwellers). Add those who have poor eyesight, or other disability that prevents them from driving.
Those who choose not to drive for personal reasons, but who otherwise could.

I have no idea what the proportion of the population that is, but urban dwellers will probably have PT as an alternative, and many rural dwellers will have less plentiful PT alternative, but they will have some. There is already e bikes, e scooters and plain old push-bikes. Plus also the shared car service like Go-Car provide. Then the taxis provide a public service.

However, I do not expect the pony and trap nor the humble ass and cart to make a return in Ireland any time soon.

bk · 17-03-2024 3:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121904877#Comment_121904877

Hmmm, I better get my young daughter some Lycra so as she has been cycling to school all winter.

Complete and utter nonsense!

bk · 17-03-2024 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121904994#Comment_121904994

Same as today, there are 2.25 million cars registered in Ireland today. 1 million were added in just the last 20 years!

I wouldn’t expect this to be lower come 2050, I’d be surprised if it isn’t more.

Don’t get me wrong, I do think we will see big changes in Dublin, the city is simply too big and growing too fast to continue to rely on cars, it has no choice but to grow PT, cycling, etc.

The rest of the country is looking far less positive. Even Cork, the second biggest city, is a car dependent hell and the people of Cork have no interest in changing it, see how BusConnects Cork is being watered down.

The demographics of Ireland are simply terrible for PT. We have the most rural and least dense population in Europe, 40% rural, while 10% is more the norm. And even worse, completely spread out in one off homes.

Even that 60% urban stat hides a lot of lies, that includes all towns and most villages, as they would be defined as urban even though most people would consider them rural. Even in such towns and villages the car rules.

And as I mentioned even cities like Cork aren’t really ready for the transformation.

BTW I’m not being pessimistic, I’m trying to be realistic. I choose not to own a car myself as I live in Dublin and I feel I don’t need one. But if I lived anywhere else I’d probably have a car.

This isn’t really a PT problem, it is more a demographics, societal, planning issue.

Sam Russell · 17-03-2024 6:01pm

There are two ways to get people out of cars and onto PT. The carrot and the stick.

Improve PT so it is reliable, fast, and affordable, and goes where users need it to go.
Make cars unaffordable, slow, and impossible to drive in cities and large urban areas by restricting parking and turns plus speed limits.

Do both of these gradually - bit by bit. Stop improving facilities for drivers, but make P&R more available, and preferable. Improve PT and active travel.

I live near St Vincent's University Hospital and it is covered with cars and car parks. However, there are high frequency Dublin Bus routes passing the door. The BE route from Wexford diverts to facilitate patients morning and evening. And of course, the Dart is available at Sydney Parade with 10 min Darts in both directions.

Why does it provide so much parking for staff and patients?

bk · 17-03-2024 8:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121906218#Comment_121906218

I agree completely and I do think it will work for Dublin.

But I don’t think it will work for most of the rest of the country, at least not in the short to medium term. Even Cork is decades behind Dublin. This is going to be a long, generational transformation that will require societal and political change too.

Sam Russell · 17-03-2024 10:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121906874#Comment_121906874

Look at Oxford in the UK.

Bicycles everywhere. P&R at every major junction of the ring road. Very expensive and limited parking in the town. No through routes for cars.

It works for Oxford, which is small compared to Dublin.

If it works for Oxford it will likely work for Cork, and other cities in Ireland. Just make sure the parking fines are enforced with clamping and towing.

Ronald Binge Redux · 17-03-2024 11:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905518#Comment_121905518

Not where I live. I doubt your daughter has to travel 50km to work.

Lol Exclamation Mark repeat

bk · 18-03-2024 10:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907480#Comment_121907480

I’m not suggesting anyone needs to cycle 50km to work, though actually I know someone who does. More of a case that there is no reason why most people living in Dublin City can’t cycle or even folks in their local towns.

But honestly I roll my eyes at people who comment about folks wearing Lycra.

I always picture someone sitting in their car, depressed stuck in traffic, jealously looking on at the fit, healthy people cycling past you, all while being afraid of a bit of rain.

If cycling isn’t for you for a variety of reasons, totally fair, I don’t really cycle much myself, but actively posting and mocking people who are exercising and using one of the most environmentally positive forms of transport, simply comes across as pretty sad.

lawred2 · 18-03-2024 10:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907313#Comment_121907313

Have they handed the p&r to the private sector for profit?

That for me has always been clear evidence that we don't truly understand our want to understand public transport as a concept.

bk · 18-03-2024 10:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907313#Comment_121907313

I don’t disagree but cycling only has a 1% modal share in Cork.

And it is easy to say just enforce parking fines, etc but if you have been following what has been happening in Cork, you would know it is far from that easy.

Look at the bus gate on partricks street, it got watered down to nothing.

Any sort of pedestrianisation project or parking enforcement gets fought tooth and nail by the car parks and local businesses.

Busconnects Cork is getting fought by pretty much every city councillor and they largely supported by the public in Cork on this.

You can only make these sort of radical changes if the public support it and while I can’t speak for the rest of the country, the widespread public support just isn’t there for it in Cork yet. It will need a cultural change to really change this.

KrisW1001 · 18-03-2024 11:21am

The geography of Cork is not friendly to cyclists, with lots of steep hills- especially if you go North-South. Electrically assisted bikes may make cycling viable, but a Dublin-based friend who is an avid cyclist (he has no car, uses bike or PT for everything) did remark that it wouldn't have been as easy to go bike-only if he lived here in Cork.

@lawred2 No. The Black Ash P&R is owned and operated by the city and TII. Parking enforcement might be outsourced, but the ticket revenues go back into the transport budget.

Do you know of a government-funded P+R that's run entirely for profit? I don't: all of the Luas P+R facilities are owned by TII, they are run to cover their costs, and the system operator only gets a share of revenue, so I don't know why you think it is normal practice to sell these off...

IÉ outsources the operation of its station parking to APCOA, but again, this generates income for IÉ and the higher enforcement of overstays keeps the parking available. I suppose it comes down to what you'd call "for profit"..

bk · 18-03-2024 11:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908375#Comment_121908375

Corkonian myself originally, e-bikes are great and can definitely get you up the hills with ease, but then the challenge with e-bikes is that their high cost makes them a priority target for bike theft. It is grand if you re lucky enough to have secure parking at both ends, but most people don’t.

designshexagon · 18-03-2024 1:55pm

Realistically, building new towns in the countryside based on a rail link is not ideal. Places like Limerick Jct, Ballybrophy etc. are in the middle of nowhere and any town built there requires massive investment as every single utility and service needs to be built from scratch. Even after those are put in, facilities and opportunities will not necessarily be much better than other nearby towns with rail connections like Thurles, Nenagh, Tipperary Town - many of which suffer from depopulation to begin with. Also developers would have to take on the burden of putting in this new infrastructure for an already risky investment considering the question of whether there is even demand to live in a new town in the countryside that hasn't been "tried and tested". Also most of the construction would need to be phased over at least a decade meaning that the first residents would have more limited facilities, shops, etc. The only trips that could be replaced by rail are commuters travelling minimum 30 mins to Limerick or 2h to Dublin but due to the isolated location of the town most households would still probably require a car for convenience and flexibility. Also many people moving far away from the cities would likely prefer a larger home. Options for smaller terraced homes and apartments in Limerick Jct are less attractive when you are not in an established or well-connected community and they probably would not be able to be priced competitively lower due to construction costs.

The alternative is for more homes to be built in already established towns with good transport connectivity. This is already being done on a large-scale in plenty of towns outside of the immediate vicinity of Dublin such as Kilcock, Donabate, Newbridge etc. but it is fairly uncoordinated and seems that the developers will just continue to build estates until the existing facilities become way over capacity and the council says stop. And because the estates being built are mostly low-density and car-centric, these towns are more transit-adjacent than transit-oriented, often with a small traffic-clogged main road with old coverted houses that constitutes the "village" centre. Development in these towns is positive and makes much more sense than starting from scratch in Limerick Junction but it requires initiative and coordination from both local and national government to first increase service capacity in the towns earmarked for growth, create more space-efficient and active-travel-oriented housing estates, and a concerted retrofitting of the town centres so that they become the main hub for local retail/facilities rather than the nearest out-of-town retail park.

Pete_Cavan · 18-03-2024 4:51pm

The population is growing and national policy is for development to happen within or adjacent to existing urban areas. With a lot of expansion taking place in well established commuter towns, we should be looking to add stations in certain towns. This has the advantage of using existing services so additional rolling stock and drivers are not necessarily required (though obviously if it is successful, the passenger numbers may require extra services, but that should be the goal anyway). Adding stations would be pretty cheap and easily deliverable, particularly without a car park.

The likes of Drogheda, Balbriggan, Bray, Greystones and Maynooth could do with a second station. The extra station may be built either side of the existing station, or the original station replaced by two new ones with suitable spacing. There should be a study into this looking at which towns would justify an additional stations, potential locations where space would be available and would serve sufficient population, etc.

gjim · 18-03-2024 7:16pm

Agree with both the above. Transport Oriented Development sounds like an excuse for building new towns miles from existing urban areas - a type of development which is cheap in terms of cost per unit but delivers a poor quality of life. Access to a windswept train station is not enough to compensate for a lack of access to nearby shopping, restaurants/pubs, schools, recreational facilities, entertainment venues, health services, etc. within any sort of reasonable walking or cycling distance. And stats show that car ownership and dependence is much higher in commuter towns even if they have a train station than in urban centres.

riddlinrussell · 18-03-2024 8:14pm

That guy seems to think that's what ToD means, at least, but it can be practiced around any station. I'd say best spot for a new one would be the Dublin Industrial Estate, it will be on the new Finglas Luas.

gjim · 18-03-2024 9:52pm

Good point - ToD, when discussed in the context of the US at least, refers to densifying sprawling suburbia by allowing higher densities around stations even if in predominantly low-density semi-urban areas. Or as a form of urban regeneration.

This is a perfectly sensible idea. Re-developing DIE to be residential would be a good example of this idea.

Whether there's a train station there or not, building a bunch of 4-6 story apartment blocks surrounded by green fields and farms, 10km outside the M50 is not the idea of ToD as I understand it.

Transit Oriented Development - Best candidate locations in Ireland

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